Business Storytelling Is the Part AI Has to Borrow

Kris: [00:00:00] Welcome to From Click to Client, where we transform a confusing message into a clear, compelling story that sells. I'm your host, Kris Jones, story brand marketing expert. I'm here to help you attract more dream clients with the power of [00:00:15] story Dr. JJ Peterson, I am so delighted to have you here. JJ and I have known each other now about a decade because JJ and- ... Donald Miller were a [00:00:30] two, two-man band, or a three-man band, three-person band with Koula Callahan, way back in the early days. And so I have known you a long time, and it's just such a joy to have you here on the show, and I've been [00:00:45] really looking forward to it. So welcome, and thank you for being here.

J.J.: [00:00:49] Oh, my gosh. Such an honor, and likewise. Like, before we even started recording, we talked for like 20 minutes 'cause we're just like, "We just keep going."

Kris: [00:00:56] We do. We do. So get

J.J.: [00:00:58] ready for our- It's like, "We gotta get down to business. Let's actually [00:01:00] record a podcast here."

Kris: [00:01:01] Yeah, let me hit record. Yeah. And Tim, Tim Ferriss, eat your heart out with your two-hour podcast episodes. So, a little bit about JJ. He has spent [00:01:15] a couple of decades helping business owners get clear on their message so they can truly stand out in a crowded market. And he, as I mentioned, has been one of the, the key leaders inside the StoryBrand community and [00:01:30] been Donald Miller's thought partner as they've grown this business. And now you are leaning into a new brand, your own brand, which is, as you can see in the background if you're watching this on video, Badass Softy. And [00:01:45] it's not only his business, I love the logo, but it's also a podcast, which I was on recently. So congratulations on this kind of new chapter for you.

J.J.: [00:01:57] Thanks. It's been real fun. It, it feels like, [00:02:00] uh, in some ways a new chapter, and in some ways just a continuation of what, has been happening. You know, I was with StoryBrand and Don for, I think, 13, 14 years, and, and loved it, and have continued, continue to... I'm actually still there. I still have a [00:02:15] title there. It's called professor-in-residence, so I still teach and kind of do curriculum, and I just got a meeting on my calendar next week with him. And so, um, still involved, but really kind of moving into building some of my own things. You know, as a business owner, you, like, [00:02:30] get to a point where you're like, "Well, I'd like to not have to ask off for vacation and take it when I want," you know? Right. Like things like that. And so it's like I started kind of building my own thing, and still a continuation of that and a little bit of expanding on it a little.

Kris: [00:02:43] Totally. And, and [00:02:45] along the way, you have gone and gotten your doctorate in story. Is that right? At Vanderbilt? Or is that where you teach?

J.J.: [00:02:52] That's where I teach. Okay. I teach in the master's program at Vanderbilt, master's of marketing in, um, at Vanderbilt, but my PhD is in communication [00:03:00] with an emphasis in narrative theory and narrative marketing. And so my whole study was to look at, I mean, story has always been kind of my world, and fascinated by and studied. And even as part of my PhD, I flew to Oxford [00:03:15] and, studied Lewis and Tolkien, and it just kind of had- Wow ... it's, like, the best PhD ever. And, then, and movies and all that. And so I wanted to know with my dissertation, essentially, does story work, like wha- [00:03:30] and why does wor- story work, and I actually, took me about 10 years is how long I worked on it. It's about as long as you're allowed to. And really studied what makes people move and connect and, change their minds, and then how [00:03:45] do you bring that into just your storytelling in general, and then also specifically messaging and marketing.

Kris: [00:03:51] And you had, been in lots of different industries, that were related to story before StoryBrand, so this is kind [00:04:00] of your passion in many ways- ... obviously, if you're getting your doctorate in, in it. I'm curious. You, you knew a lot about story before you went back to school. Yeah. What did you learn that was surprising to you?[00:04:15]

J.J.: [00:04:15] Well, what was interesting is, if you would have known me pre-StoryBrand, people would have said I was all over the place. It never felt like that to me, but like I was an actor and a director, like in Hollywood, and wrote and developed a television show and wrote [00:04:30] screenplays. And then I also was a professor. I taught communication and leadership at a university. I also did nonprofit work, where specifically I did marketing and built websites. So everybody's like, "Oh, wait, you're a marketer. Oh, wait, no, you're in- you're into writing movies. Oh, [00:04:45] wait, you're a professor." And it felt like all over the place. So when I found StoryBrand, it genuinely felt like, oh, finally, all my passions have kind of all come together. Yes. And that was really fun for me. In fact, like when I met Don, I was [00:05:00] a, I was a dean of students at a university, and I was, I had just sold a television show to a production company, and I was leaving that s- school to go do the TV show. And kind of as a gift to myself, I had been a fan of Don's. He was a [00:05:15] writer and, you know, and I'd watched even his movie and everything, and I was like, "I'm gonna hire this guy to come speak to my students so I can hear him." Like, it was kind of like a farewell gift to me. 'Cause I reached out to his team, who I didn't know at the time, and just said, "Can he come speak?" And he said, [00:05:30] "Yes." And we met, and like kind of instantly clicked, and he started hearing everything I was doing, and he's like, "I'm launching this thing called StoryBrand." It didn't really exist yet. It was called StoryLine at the time. And he said, "Why don't you come and rebrand [00:05:45] yourself? You're moving out of education into entertainment. How, you know..." And when I came out to the first workshop, I was just like, "Oh, you jerk. This is what I've been trying to do for 20 years, and you figured it out." You know? Yes. And so and that's just, that was [00:06:00] the beginning of, you know, like 13, 14 years ago of now continuing to work together in it. And so I was working on my PhD actually to teach, 'cause I was a professor before I even came to StoryBrand, and then finished it while I was at StoryBrand, and kind of [00:06:15] redirected it a little bit to fit what we were doing. the biggest thing for me of discovery, I, I would say the kind of the area that I just went, "Oh, okay, this all makes sense," because I, I said what I wanted to discover in my PhD is how story works [00:06:30] and, like, does it work and how? And understanding that story is formulaic, you and I know that from being in the StoryBrand world, that there are actually rules to story. But the biggest thing that surprised me was there's this, the area that I really [00:06:45] studied was a, a area called narrative transportation, and it's the idea that when you experience a good story, you transport yourself into that. So, like, if you're in a movie and you laugh or you see something scary and you [00:07:00] jump, you've experienced narrative transportation. Now, to help people experience or, more importantly, break narrative transportation, there are actually rules around that as well. Mm. So when people [00:07:15] experience narrative transportation, the more they experience, the more influence that story has on their thoughts and their actions. So that was one thing that just m- There's actual research around that story can change your mind and [00:07:30] change the way you act. But the only reason that can happen is if you experience this thing called narrative transportation. Right. Now, there is a 15... I'm getting very nerdy here in this, but- I love it ... I get very excited. Keep going. So-

Kris: [00:07:40] Yes ...

J.J.: [00:07:40] there's actually, the people who basically developed the idea around [00:07:45] narrative transportation created this 15-point scale. There's kind of like 15 things that if you don't hit them, it breaks narrative transportation. So there's, there's a lot of different kind of intricate rules to it. But really, the [00:08:00] two most important things that people have to experience when they see a story, if it's gonna have influence on them, is they have to see themselves in the story in some form, whether that is because they relate to an [00:08:15] emotion, a situation, or an action that the character is in, taking or in. So they have to see themselves in the story. And then the second thing is the story has to have what is called fidelity and coherency. It needs to stick together, [00:08:30] meaning it needs to follow the rules of story. So if you can achieve those two things in a movie, in a book, and, but the research also shows in marketing that people can see themselves in the story and the story sticks together and makes sense, the [00:08:45] research shows you will experience narrative transportation, and therefore that story will have a higher level of influence on your thoughts and actions. So when I came to StoryBrand, one of the really interesting things, so when you do your PhD and you [00:09:00] do a dissertation, you have to do, you have to add to scholarship, which means that you're not ever allowed to repeat something some- You, I can't just summarize somebody else's research, you know? So I can't just do, like, how to write a good [00:09:15] story. Well, some, millions of people have written on that. Or, um, I can't do, like, originally I was studying comedy for quite a few years, of how to use comedy in story and the influence comedy has. Mm-hmm. Different things like that. But the area that it came down to was, weirdly [00:09:30] enough in academia, nobody had ever showed a very clear path of how to easily achieve fidelity and coherency and make sure the person sees themselves in the story. So they could measure if somebody saw themself in the story, and they could [00:09:45] measure the impact of the lack of fidelity and coherency in a story and its influence, but nobody in academia had said, "Here's how to achieve it." So when we created the stuff at StoryBrand, we were actually the first in the academic [00:10:00] world to say, "Here's how you actually achieve the top two levels for narrative transportation. You make the story about your customer, and you do that by identifying who the character is. The character is your, the hero of the story is your customer, [00:10:15] and you identify very early on what it is that they want, and then what problem they have." Those two things in marketing guarantee that you are making the story about your customer, and they will see themselves in it. And then second, what StoryBrand did is [00:10:30] gave us seven elements that have to be in a story for it to make sense, meaning we created the system for fidelity and coherency in a narrative. So That's what surprised me, is one, influence can be [00:10:45] measured. It's really measured by this one thing called narrative transportation, and then the way that you achieve narrative transportation is by making the character see themselves, making the audience see themselves in the story, and having fidelity and coherency. Mm. And when I [00:11:00] discovered that, and then I basically went back with the StoryBrand framework to my advisors and said, "Hey, I'm not finding anywhere this. This is how you achieve fidelity and coherency and see themselves in the story." And they all went, "Yeah, nobody's ever done [00:11:15] this before." And So Don often introduces me as the world's leading academic expert in the StoryBrand framework. That's because when I wrote this dissertation, nobody had ever written what we had written before. And so any time, [00:11:30] the, the trick is any time you have a PhD, you are the leading academic expert in your area because nobody else has ever written about that before. Because

Kris: [00:11:37] that's the rule. You can't repeat. So. Yeah.

J.J.: [00:11:41] So anyway, that's a long way around it, but that was really kind of what [00:11:45] surprised me, and then also what we discovered along the way.

Kris: [00:11:48] Wow. That's really cool. I didn't realize that that's how you had o- originally met Don, and I didn't know that one-two punch, those two components when [00:12:00] working together can really basically- Achieve narrative transformation, AKA time travel.

J.J.: [00:12:08] It's like you Yeah ... What it really does in the way that your m- it works with your mind is it allows your mind to kind [00:12:15] of not have to think about all the other things. Because when you create this kind of system for people or the, the clarity in the story, It does the thinking for your brain. Got it. So it actually helps your brain kinda enter into. So often what [00:12:30] we say at StoryBrand is you're not... When you're creating good marketing, a lot of people say, "I wanna tell our story." And we say, "No, you can't tell your story. You have to tell your customer's." But then really it's actually you're not telling your customer's story. What you're doing is you're [00:12:45] inviting your customer into a story that they can see themselves and make sense.

Kris: [00:12:48] Yes. Uh, I, I like to talk about it that way because it feels much more accurate. You-

J.J.: [00:12:54] Yep

Kris: [00:12:54] it is a, a story that you're sharing with your customer. You're obviously the [00:13:00] guide, they're the hero. They're the central figure, and for a lot of the people that I work with, that's kind of a relief. Like, they're in the story- Mm-hmm ... but they're not the central character. They're the strongest character, which is also [00:13:15] wonderful. but yeah, it's, it's tricky. I think a lot of people want to tell their company's story, and I think it's really important. Not that you can't do that, but if you want to make money and grow the business, [00:13:30] first you have to tell a story where y- your ideal client is the hero and you're the guide.

J.J.: [00:13:36] Yeah. And what I've just kind of talked about is the research shows if you make yourself the hero or your business the hero, it will not... It has [00:13:45] been proven, there's research to show it will not have as much influence or impact as the other version. It just won't. Right.

Kris: [00:13:52] Right.

J.J.: [00:13:52] So it's not even, like, what we... Like, I think for me what drew me to the framework in the beginning, honestly, was that. It was like, oh, I don't have to [00:14:00] sell anything anymore. I don't have to push- Right ... or try to make myself sound better than everybody else. I get to show up and be s- and serve as the guide. That's what originally drew me to the framework. Right. But then as I discovered it, it was like, oh, not only is that [00:14:15] a, a more fun way to live as a human, in my opinion, but also it actually has been proven to be more effective. So if you- Yeah ... try to make yourself the hero, you'll get attention, but you won't actually make an impact.

Kris: [00:14:27] Right. Right. It's not gonna get [00:14:30] the boat that you're on to the destination that you're hoping to get to.

J.J.: [00:14:34] Exactly.

Kris: [00:14:35] Yeah. would you say... Okay, we're talking about story in business, but would you say that you can also use story as a tool [00:14:45] for healing?

J.J.: [00:14:47] Mm, mm-hmm. Oh, in so many ways. Because what story does is it actually takes... So when we, we, when we say that story has rules, what we're actually saying is [00:15:00] the rules act as a filter and give meaning and purpose and direction for events. Mm-hmm. So what happens is when you're telling an actual story, a good story to yourself, to other people, [00:15:15] what you're doing is you're filtering out the information that is in any given situation down to the meaningful moments. Mm. So like today, you know, there's been a lot of things that have happened in my day [00:15:30] But like, including like, "Oh, I made breakfast this morning. I had coffee. I, cleaned off the counter. I took a phone call." but at the end of the day when I'm sitting down with my husband and talking about the day and he goes, "So what did you do today?" I'm gonna find the [00:15:45] one or two moments, probably this podcast being one of them, and say, "Oh, there was this moment today when I was talking with Kris," and, right? So I've filtered out all the other meaningless kind of things. So that's one [00:16:00] piece is it helps, story helps organize and give meaning to and highlight the important pieces. The other thing to remember is that a good story always involves transformation. So a hero in a [00:16:15] story is never the same at the end of the story as they are at the beginning. Like, Luke Skywalker is an orphan on a planet, you know, alone. By the end of Star Wars, he's a Jedi. He literally transforms. He becomes somebody different.

Kris: [00:16:28] Right.

J.J.: [00:16:29] Katniss in [00:16:30] Hunger Games, kind of an orphan also. Yes. Trying to take care of her family. She becomes the Mockingjay. Story involves transformation. If there's no transformation, it's just an anecdote. It's not a story. If you're like, "What'd you have for breakfast?" I'm like, [00:16:45] "Eggs." And you're like, "Wow, fascinating." You're not saying that, right? It's not interesting. But if I learn a lesson from my eggs this morning or it transformed me, now it becomes an interesting story. So a lot of times what can happen [00:17:00] when you're telling a story, even for yourself, is what you're doing is you're looking for where were the moments that I transformed? Where are the moments where I learned something and became somebody different? Because when I can identify those selves, 'cause a lot of times we don't see [00:17:15] ourselves, we live in the day to day, so we don't see ourselves as constantly transforming. So we think, "Well, I've been struggling with this and I'm always gonna struggle with this." And really if you pause for two seconds and go, "But three years ago, where were you?"

Kris: [00:17:27] Right.

J.J.: [00:17:28] You can, you can recognize there was a [00:17:30] transformation. That's a good story. So story for me gives us kind of that filter and framework, one, to find meaning in the individual moments that often there's five billion in a day. Right. And second, [00:17:45] helps us to identify the moments of transformation that are actually important for us to continue to heal and move forward.

Kris: [00:17:51] Oh my gosh, what a beautiful answer, and I just totally resonate with it. I, I've felt the [00:18:00] healing power of story, but it's really cool to put words to it like that, so

J.J.: [00:18:05] thank you And then, I mean, there's so much more, like, where of connection. Like, when you and I share a common story and you can see yourself in my story, if I've experienced [00:18:15] healing, you can experience healing through me. You know? And, and it's not always a one-to-one, but there's an element of community and tribalism and where we can learn from each other. If I learn to tell my story in a way that's helpful, that's valuable, [00:18:30] like, if we're even talking taking it out of even that kind of the healing space, but even in a, like a, a entrepreneur and thought leader, right? If they can learn to put their transformation, their healing, their changing [00:18:45] into words, then they can actually show people that there's a path forward for transformation for themselves. Mm. So when I say you cannot be the hero of your own story, what I'm not saying is don't ever share your story. But recognize the [00:19:00] parts of the story that you share should be as a guide for other people who want to go on that same transformation.

Kris: [00:19:07] Mm.

J.J.: [00:19:07] So if you've moved from here to here, then you're not telling the story about how you did it in... Like, if you were [00:19:15] born a billionaire, and you're like, "Well, all you have to do is start a business," that's not gonna tell somebody, right? Like, "All you have to do is just start a business and people will come." And it's like, well, that's not my story, so I can't actually see myself. But if you are a thought leader who, when you were younger, struggled [00:19:30] and went through hard things, and even were, like, beaten up and pushed down and overlooked, and then you move to a place of where you actually now help other people move, I can see myself in that story, and I can believe that I have healing and [00:19:45] transformation in me as well.

Kris: [00:19:46] yeah. It's a, it's like a meaning-making machine, but also a hope, right? It's the hope and the belief that, oh, if they've done it, that's proof that I can then do it too. Mm. So when, when an [00:20:00] entrepreneur is telling their story, the parts that really matter to your ideal clients are really the struggle that you had and that you found a way to overcome that struggle. And you don't get ... You don't have [00:20:15] to go into a lotta detail about how you even solved it. You just have to show That you did.

J.J.: [00:20:21] and that you can too

Kris: [00:20:22] Yes. Well, what are, what are some of the mistakes that you've seen entrepreneurs make when [00:20:30] it comes to this kind of work?

J.J.: [00:20:32] Yeah, so there's a couple different things. One of the things I'm working with a lot of clients on right now is how to show up with your authentic voice, your human voice. In a world of AI, where, like, everything is kind of insane, [00:20:45] and everybody sounds the same, and there's more noise in the market, and everything's generic, how do you show up with an authentic voice? And the first part I will say is a couple mistakes people make is they show up, you know, you and I both know with Donald [00:21:00] Miller's framework, one of the things that we talk about is there are really four characters to every story, right? There's a hero, a villain, a victim, and a guide. And those exist in story because they exist in us, right? That we often play the [00:21:15] victim, the villain, the hero, and the guide. So just very briefly to describe those is when it comes to a victim, a victim exists only in a narrative. In story framework, a victim only exists in the story to make the hero look [00:21:30] good and the villain look bad. They, good stories are never written about victims who stay victims. They're a side character. And so they really just exist to essentially suck energy from other people. So- ... we, when we play [00:21:45] the victim, when we play a victim with our own lives, we often show up in a way that is trying to make people feel sorry for us. or we're trying to, blame other people. And when I see [00:22:00] leaders, entrepreneurs show up with, as a victim online, you're never gonna write a good story with your life or your business because people aren't gonna trust you. You're there to be rescued, not to help them. So while [00:22:15] authenticity can feel like, "Hey guys, ugh, I'm just beaten up right now," and d- like, you wanna be authentic and real, but when you do it in a way that blames other people or is begging for people to work with you because you really need [00:22:30] it right now, "Business has been hard. I really need you guys to step up and help me out," you are playing the victim, and that is not a good story. So authenticity does not mean that you show up and share everything, and that's what first mistake, because you will become a victim in the [00:22:45] story. Then what ends up happening is the victim, in a, in a narrative context then, if they move outside of becoming a victim, once something bad happens to them, they really have two choices. They can choose to revenge the pain, which becomes a [00:23:00] villain, or they can choose to redeem the pain, which is becomes the hero. I believe that villains are victims who just gave up on healing because basically they said it's too hard to try to overcome this hard thing, and so I'm gonna [00:23:15] put up a wall and be an asshole to everybody else because that's actually safer for me than to continue to try to heal. And so villains in a story, they often have like a, a, a scar on their face to show you they've been through hard [00:23:30] things, but they're trying to revenge the pain. But the thing about villains is people want them to die, right? Like, you root for the villain to die. People don't like the villain. So when you show up as a villain, I think a lot of times that can draw a lot of [00:23:45] attention online. Where you're showing up and, you're yelling at people and

Kris: [00:23:50] you're blaming people Like Simon Cowell. Yeah Simon Cowell kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

J.J.: [00:23:53] Now, and, and he made a, he made a career out of it, but that's in entertainment. It's very entertaining. It gets attention. [00:24:00] Yes. But it doesn't build trust. Like-

Kris: [00:24:01] Right ...

J.J.: [00:24:02] and so that's when you show up as a villain, you also make a mistake.

Kris: [00:24:06] Right.

J.J.: [00:24:07] The two ways you really wanna show up is as a hero, truthfully, with your own stories, showing that if you're just doing your story, you're showing how you are [00:24:15] overcoming or moving forward. Right. And then the biggest transformation is when you get to become the guide, and you actually help other people move forward. So the guide is Obi-Wan Kenobi, it's Yoda. It is the strongest character in the story. [00:24:30] And even though in my own life I sometimes play all four of those characters in the same day, I can be a victim and blame other people, I can be a villain and try to be angry and destroy. I can then overcome that by, in my own journey, but then really I wanna turn around and help other [00:24:45] people. So if, if you're showing up online as a victim or a villain, you're not gonna build your business. You need to start showing up a little bit as a hero, talking about your own journey, and then ultimately moving into the guide space, helping other people. So that's where [00:25:00] the mistake is being a victim and villain, you move towards hero and guide. So then, what does that look like? So how then do you show up as a guide online? Right. When, you know, let's say, you know, you and I are both marketing [00:25:15] consultants. We help people with their messaging. We help leaders. You and I have similar clientele. Yes. So it's like, well, if Kris is saying this, then I can't say this. How do I show up differently than Kris, and also every other marketer that's out there, and every other person that [00:25:30] helps entrepreneurs, and every other business coach? It can feel really overwhelming. Right. So one of the ways that I help people show up online and in their messaging is as a guide, is really kind of three different things. and [00:25:45] all of this is you have to show up with a point of view. That's the biggest overall arching thing here. AI does not have a point of view. Nobody else in the world has your point of view, so you need to lean into your own point of view. Right. How do you do that? The first [00:26:00] is with wisdom. So the way that I talk with a lot of clients is what stories in your life do you have a scar from that you transformed past, So the thing is, is that you, you have to show up with your [00:26:15] point of view, and the... Why that's so important in this day and age in particular is AI does not have its own point of view. It has to steal it from everybody else. So if you show up to AI without a point of view, you actually sound like everybody else. [00:26:30] And also, you are the only person in the world who has your point of view. You do not have mine, I do not have yours, so we have a unique voice that we can bring to the table. So how do we show up with our point of view? The first is [00:26:45] lean into... When, when I'm working with clients, a lot of times what I'm pulling out of them is I, I go, "All right. Let's talk about your wisdom." There's a couple different ways to approach wisdom. The first is what stories do you have where you [00:27:00] transformed? And often what I'm looking for is where do you have scars? And I don't mean physical, but, like, from your work and growth, because wisdom often is accompanied by a scar. So where in your life did you go through [00:27:15] something really hard in business or in life that then you transformed and now you can use that for other people? So, you know, one of the s- kind of the z- one of my famous stories is I was in a Missy Elliott music video. [00:27:30] Nobody else in the world that I know of... Well, actually, I know this fact. Nobody else was in a music video with Missy Elliott where my character's name was called Fat Michael Jackson. Nobody else in the world that happened to, right? So I can tell that [00:27:45] story and show up with my unique voice because it's a... The whole story, I won't get into it now, but it really, you can listen to my podcast to hear it all. But

Kris: [00:27:53] it- I, I love this story ... you know, it- It's such a good story. Okay, but keep going ...

J.J.: [00:27:57] it was a, it was a story where at one point I played the [00:28:00] victim. At one point I started, I was like, "I'm gonna burn this place down." I became a villain, then I kind of became the hero and ultimately the guide. And so I use that in my talk, but that's my story. That comes with a scar of some, a little bit of embarrassment of how I acted, and it's also [00:28:15] nobody else has it. So that is wisdom I can bring to the table that nobody else can bring. So even if we're, you and I are making the same point about becoming a guide, you don't have my point of view on that, so I can bring that. So where are the stories that have wisdom [00:28:30] that you overcame something? And then the second piece that I often will bring to this, and this is based on my academic world, is what I call layers. So in academia, you, I mentioned you have to bring something [00:28:45] unique and original to the table that you're studying. So if I come to my academic studies and I say, "I want to study story," that's one layer, but everybody's written about stories. So then I say, "I wanna study comedy in story." Now I've [00:29:00] added another layer. Then I say, "I wanna study, comedy in fiction in story." Now it's another layer. But at that point, even in the academic world, because everybody's written about everything, there is no differentiation there. I have to keep [00:29:15] going. And so I have to find my layers that actually create my unique area of expertise. in the academic world, you have to go about 10 layers deep. But, you know, let's say in, in a [00:29:30] business space, a leader is wanting to kind of influence people on culture. Let's say they wanna do culture. Well, part of what they love maybe might be Brene Brown and her work on vulnerability, but I can't talk about vulnerability in the workplace because that's really Brene [00:29:45] Brown. Or Simon Sinek talks about finding your why and how that can create culture. I can't talk about that. That belongs to Simon Sinek. But what if I could find a way to talk about how we can use vulnerability to [00:30:00] find our why that allows us to belong? Now there's three layers that now that's my unique perspective, and I can draw from Brene Brown, and I can draw from Simon Sinek, but my unique voice, my wisdom comes from the [00:30:15] layering of those ideas. So I'm then look, 'cause if I'm talking, like somebody comes to me and go, "I wanna write a book on leadership," great. What's your unique voice in the leadership space? Let's start with wisdom. Where are your unique stories that you learned [00:30:30] from? Because nobody else has those. And then second, where's your layers? Where can we put some things together that actually form your niche in this space? So that's kind of step one in how to show up as a guide. Then the second one really is the story [00:30:45] brand framework of become the guide. so your voice needs to have empathy, so you need to understand what everybody is going through that you're trying to serve, and you need authority. You actually need some experience, education. That can also come from the layers or [00:31:00] wisdom, but there's gotta be something that you can bring to the table that says, "I'm not selling this out of the back of a van," right? And typically in our world, what that means is you have the ability to solve people's problems or you have solved problems before [00:31:15] So that's really it. That's how you show up. Empathy for your customer's problem, and then authority to solve it. Some proof, little bit of proof. This is not making you the hero of the story, 'cause the only proof that you're showing is the proof that you can help somebody else with a problem. [00:31:30] So wisdom, show up as a guide, and then the last piece for me that really brings in your unique voice and point of view is something that I've been studying a lot of lately, which is joy. That I really believe that [00:31:45] leaders and entrepreneurs, we need to be people who practice joy. I think in the, in its most basic level, it separates us from robots. it, it makes us [00:32:00] human and builds connection. But the research around it to me is actually really, really fascinating. So often I think we've thought of joy, I have thought of joy as the reward for hard work. Like, you know, even in the classroom, it'd [00:32:15] be like, "All right, everybody settle down. Quit talking, quit laughing. We gotta get back to work." Or, you know, it's like, "Hey, you can, you can socialize and build relationship at lunch after you've worked really hard all morning," right? Or, "We're gonna throw a party [00:32:30] at the end of whatever." That's often when joy shows up in the workplace. But what the research actually shows is that- People who experience micro moments of joy throughout the day are actually more creative, [00:32:45] they're better problem solvers, they stay longer in the workplace, they accomplish more, they actually are harder workers and get more done, they're better team players. And all of that contributes to [00:33:00] literally the bottom line in a business. And it's the same like if you, let's say you own a boutique that people come in and buy jewelry from. You will actually have a greater return on your investments if you invest in [00:33:15] joy along with everything else, because people make a stronger connection, they will be more loyal. There's all of these different things that happen with joy. And what we're not talking about here when you're talking about creating micro moments of joy is not, like, just laugh all day or [00:33:30] just be happy. There's research around how people can experience m- joy throughout the day, and that w- there's a few different things that were surprising to me. Some of the obvious is, like, connection with somebody else, laughter, but also [00:33:45] whimsy. workflow, so people can actually experience joy when they're uninterrupted for a few hours and can put their head down. There's joy associated with that. Obviously, experiencing nature, surprise, creativity, doing [00:34:00] something that is not in your normal skill set. So there's all these very specific things that I think entrepreneurs who are leading teams can bring in. But also when you show up that way, like, so if I can do that with my team, they're gonna [00:34:15] be more creative and get more done, and there's more connection. But if I show up with that voice online, if I'm bringing a little bit of whimsy, if I'm bringing a little bit of beauty, like, you know, "Oh my gosh, look at this sunset. look at this cool food that I got." Like, people think that [00:34:30] that's, you know, "Oh, I'm not gonna watch somebody else eat something new, a new food." Well, actually, that micro moment of joy, the reason why s- people showing their food, what they're eating online is, is effective in the algorithm is because how that actually shows up in my [00:34:45] brain is it's something new, it's whimsical often- Right it is unique. And so when I show up with those things online, I actually build stronger connection with my audience, and I come across as more human, which the research right now is showing the more people view [00:35:00] you as human, the more trust they have in your brand. If you are using AI more and more, people are becoming more and more savvy to the AI language, and there's evidence right now that when people think, even if they think that you're using AI, [00:35:15] trust diminishes exponentially So when you're using AI, I go, "Fine, use AI, but show up with your point of view." Bring your wisdom that nobody else has, your layers and your stories. Show up as a guide with human empathy and authority, [00:35:30] and then bring that joy. And when you can do that, now we are showing up with a clear message, a clear point of view. Yes, we can talk about our products and services, and there needs to be some clarity there, 100%. I'm not... I don't wanna discount that. Right. [00:35:45] But if we don't show up as humans first, we're going to lose in this new era where AI can beat us in everything else

Kris: [00:35:53] Oh my gosh. Whoa. I wanna, I wanna pause, rewind, listen to that- ... multiple times [00:36:00] over and over. That is so beautiful and powerful. And the joy piece I think is so essential, and it's so easy to discount or forget or not to be... Your, your words were [00:36:15] practice joy, which could also mean be intentional about weaving joy into your life. Like, really be proactive about

J.J.: [00:36:24] it. I think we have to. It, it- Yeah ... for a lot of people right now, it doesn't feel like we should be joyful. Yeah. Like, it's- [00:36:30] Yeah ... the world is kind of crazy, and we all know that. Like, that's, that's the reality. And with the way that we're, like, stuck in our phones and disconnected from people, and then wars and everything else, doesn't even matter what political side of the aisle you're on. Yeah. Everything feels crazy, and it [00:36:45] feels almost actually, inappropriate to feel joy. But I actually believe that joy is a form of revolution, and when we can show up to something that feels likeJoy is audacious. [00:37:00] Do you have the audacity to show up with joy in this kind of world? Screw you. But yet, so it feels dangerous to show up with joy. It feels dangerous to jo- show up in that space, and almost irresponsible. But [00:37:15] actually, I really believe it's what the world needs. And beyond that, that's just being a good human side of things. But beyond that, the research actually shows when you intentionally, 'cause I think there are times I have to practice joy. [00:37:30] In the same way I don't feel like working out, I don't feel like eating the right foods most of the time, I don't, sometimes don't feel like showing up with a joyful attitude. But, and it, I don't want people to be fake or fake joy, but we can find those things. Like what I said, there's other [00:37:45] things beyond just being happy or laughing. There's can you look outside at a tree and appreciate it? Can you go for a walk and experience movement in nature? Can you find a way to surprise a partner or a spouse in your life or a child [00:38:00] or coworker? You get that joy. They get that joy. Try a new restaurant. When you experience something unique and new, that brings a little joy. And when you then learn to share that with others, it actually even becomes more exponentially joyful for you. There's other research [00:38:15] around that that we could have a whole podcast about as well. Yeah. That, like, if I go to a restaurant and h- experience joy, then the next time if I try to go back and have that same experience, my joy is actually measurably diminished. If I bring you to that [00:38:30] restaurant- And we have the exact same food I had the first time, my joy is actually doubled because I have my own joyful experience, but now I experience the joy of, like, being a part of you experience joy. Oh, I love that. So when we go to our favorite restaurant, we go sometimes, Jamie [00:38:45] and I, just by ourselves for a date night. But more often than not, we're inviting somebody new, and that's actually why it's our favorite restaurant, is because we get to experience it with so many different people. Mm-hmm. So again, this is all about the showing up and how do you show up with this [00:39:00] clear message, with a human message, with a lead- as a leader with a good voice. Well, the joy is for you, but it actually, when you help other people experience, you not only feel better about life, but they feel better about life, which raises trust, which [00:39:15] raises connection, which ultimately can result in more business. Doesn't always have to be one for one. You and I, like, are probably not going to hire each other to do work. We might. I've, I think I have hired you for work, come back to that . But, like, [00:39:30] you and I might not, we may not be clients for each other, but when we show up for j- with joy for each other, we actually help each other be better in the market, and then there might be referrals or there might be other projects down the line. Right. So there's so many good results that can happen from this. [00:39:45]

Kris: [00:39:45] Oh, my gosh. It's so true. And I really feel like the clients that I work with typically are consultants, coaches, they're service providers. They're, they're kinda boots on the ground, helping their clients overcome [00:40:00] problems. And if I can show up with more joy, and then it's contagious, they feel a little bit more joy, and then it's, it truly is that ripple effect when you drop drop a rock into a [00:40:15] pond, energetically. And, and what a cool way to move through life, just intentionally-... making the world better and infusing joy into everything you do. And,what a creative problem to solve, especially [00:40:30] w- because they're micro moments of joy. It could just be cuddling with your dog for three minutes in the morning before you get out of bed. Yeah. I love it. So simple. So simple. Okay. So before we wrap up [00:40:45] today,I wanna hear about a story of a client that you worked with that came to you thinking they did not have a unique point of view. Mm. And you helped them find it. Like, how did you go about it? You've kind of walked us through it, but [00:41:00] I'm curious what happened for them before and after transformation?

J.J.: [00:41:05] Yeah, so a lot of what I'm working on with clients, and I, I go through all of the stuff we talked about, but I'm really trying to find something, essentially, like, what can [00:41:15] we sell to people? Like, so there's memoirs and things like that that are really about transformation and different sto- That's different than somebody who shows up and says, I want to go in and help companies do this, but I don't know how to tell them what I can [00:41:30] do and make it sound valuable." So recently, I met somebody. I was doing some work in London, and I met somebody there, and then he hired me and flew over here. And he, he came to Nashville, and we spent two days together. [00:41:45] And His whole thing is he works with companies. His company won award for best places to work in the UK, and so he goes in and wants to help companies basically with their... his name's Matt Turner, so if you're in the UK, you can hire Matt Turner. But he goes in and [00:42:00] actually works with companies to help them develop cultures where people wanna stay, and they get more out of their people, and they succeed. I mean, the, the company that he was at every time they have somebody apply, hundreds of people apply, like, for that one position. So he came, and he just literally [00:42:15] said, like, "I've done this for 20 years." He sold his company, and now he's going in and consulting. "I've done this for 20 years," and he's like, "It just... When people ask me what makes a good culture, I don't know." And so where we started, and then he's also said, [00:42:30] "I feel like everybody says what I say." Like, that's really what he came to me with those two things, is like, I don't know what to say, and I, I don't know why people would pay me money, and I feel like I'm just saying what everybody else would say." And then he told me this very incredible story about [00:42:45] where, there was a moment... I just had him start telling me wisdom and stories, right? And so one of the stories was about this 18-year-old kid who, when they started working for him, he was sitting down, and they were in a meeting with an outside consultant who came [00:43:00] in. And this kid was 18 years old, just starting there, and they, he loved him, but, like, new. And the outside consultant was talking about, like, his wife and stuff like this, and he said to the 18-year-old, "So wait, are you straight or gay?" To the 18-year-old [00:43:15] kid. And the kid said, "I'm gay." And he had never told anybody that before. And so he was put in a position of being outed in this moment. Well, the way that Matt then ended up handling that, of [00:43:30] going to that consultant and said, "Hey, by the way, you're not allowed to ever say that again, and here's why," being very clear with that, but then going to the kid and making him feel very safe and basically going, "I need you to know that shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry that it happened in that way, [00:43:45] and also if anybody ever makes you feel that way, I, I will walk them to the door." And he was just telling it like he wasn't even telling it as part of it, and I was like, "Matt, do you understand the safety and the environment that you created there, that you allowed somebody to belong in your workplace?" [00:44:00] And he was like, "Yeah, but that's just what I did." And I was like, "Matt, no, no, no. Let's, like, now take that and use that wisdom that nobody else has that story. It also, there's some truth that you learned out of that that we can share with other people about creating culture that's safe and where [00:44:15] people belong. And now let's actually formalize that in a way that now becomes a point of what you sell." And sohe didn't think he had anything. He tells one story, and now it becomes a foundation for one of the pieces of his framework. So it's [00:44:30] didn't start with I have a framework. It started with I have a voice, I have a point of view, and I have a story and wisdom. And then from there, we built out a framework that now has, like, three things that he goes in and helps companies with very specifically. We [00:44:45] have stories aligned with all three of those, and then we actually have activities and specific steps people can take to achieve those, all based on his wisdom and his experience and point of view. But he came in with s- stories, and We have a book now [00:45:00] that is being proposed and then workshops based on it

Kris: [00:45:02] Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And the strategic byproduct of that is that now he has very tangible offerings that don't sound like everybody's offerings, because they're [00:45:15] not broad and vague. They're very specific, and so he can truly deliver that, and people can truly understand it very easily and be like, "Yeah, that's what I want."

J.J.: [00:45:26] And I would say the actual, even the, just if [00:45:30] I'm... We- we're still working on it. This happened, like, two weeks ago, so this is really fresh in my mind. But, like, we're still working on what the words are in his framework, because the words actually are a little generic, and I'm actually okay with that. Because they might sound like [00:45:45] things other people say. That's okay. There is sometimes truth, right? Like with StoryBrand, if we say you need a clear and compelling message, it's not like nobody in the world has never said those words before. Yes, a lot of [00:46:00] people say you need a com- clear and compelling message or a clear and compelling story. Okay. But then the way we show up to help people do that is different. So a lot of people think, "Oh, I need this You know, they look at somebody like Nike, and they're like, "Well, Nike has 'Just do it.' I want my 'Just do [00:46:15] it.'" And I'm like, "We might find that. We might not." It actually still doesn't diminish the power of your own brand and your own, products. Because that's, they're spent billions to get that to be known. Right. We don't have billions, so [00:46:30] we're not gonna be able to do that in that way. But if you showed up and said, you know, even in leadership, if somebody was like, "Well, in leadership you need to be authentic, you need to be bold, and you need to be a problem-solver." Great. That's fine. We can use [00:46:45] those three, even if other people have said those before. However, we need to find, again, your unique point of view. What are your layers to those that other people don't have? What is your experience and wisdom that you bring, your perspective that you bring to those three things [00:47:00] that gives you actually value? Why are people gonna pay you versus pay somebody else? Right. It's only because of your point of view and your wisdom and your experience. So you can say the three generic words, you know, I don't even remember what they were anymore, but authentic, bold, and [00:47:15] problem-solver. Great. That might sound like everybody else, but it won't be when you actually bring your, humanness to the table.

Kris: [00:47:21] Totally. this reminds me of, I've done in my, in my background, I've done a fair amount of art, painting, drawing. That's [00:47:30] alwaysbeen my fun hobby. And in the classes that I've taken, often they'll put up a painting that is very well-known, like Van Gogh or, you know, who knows? Probably not Van Gogh, but like some other ones. A [00:47:45] vase and an apple. And, and as hard as I try, I can't recreate that original. It's like your voice and your point of view are inherent, and Even if [00:48:00] you tried not to have it, it's in there, and it really wants to come out.

J.J.: [00:48:04] And it's beautiful. That's the thing, is like- Yes V- let Van Gogh be Van Gogh. Great. Right. But, like, we don't need another Van Gogh. We need another Kris. And so what w- [00:48:15] your... That's the even thing more about it, is I think one of the things, this is where Badass Softie really has come in for me in a lot of ways, is because I think a lot of times earlier in my career, and even sometimes mid and late in my career, I felt like I needed to sound [00:48:30] and be like everybody else. If I'm gonna show up in a room with say like Jeff Bezos or, Elon Musk, who are put up there as like these business tycoons who are billionaires and all this stuff, if I'm most honest, I don't wanna be like them. I don't actually like the [00:48:45] way that they lead. I can learn a ton from them. Like, I have learned a ton from their styles and from their boldness and all these different things, but I actually don't wanna be like them. And if I try to show up and be a leader like them, and try to build a business like them, [00:49:00] I'm going to be a poor facsimile. It's not gonna look good, and I also am gonna be miserable in the process. My superpower is leaning into my own voice, and that's where the beauty arises. And am I gonna connect to the same people maybe that Jeff [00:49:15] Bezos and Elon Musk do? No. But the honest truth is I don't want to. I don't actually wanna be in those rooms, so why am I trying to pretend to be like them? Mm. So be my own voice and lean into my own voice, and that's where my superpower is, and then that's also where I will find [00:49:30] my room, the rooms I want to be in, the people I want to work with. Because if I'm modeling after them, I'm gonna find people that are like them, and I don't wanna be like them. So stop it.

Kris: [00:49:40] Just stop it.

J.J.: [00:49:41] Just stop it.

Kris: [00:49:42] if someone's listening today and is really [00:49:45] resonating with what you're talking about, and they're like, "Okay, what are my layers? What is my wisdom?" What's a question they can ask themself? Like, what did you ask your client to pull out those stories that he shared with you?

J.J.: [00:49:59] [00:50:00] Yeah. So the, the first thing is always like, what are the stories you always go to? Like, when it comes to business. Those, start there. Because you've used them before, you know they work. But what you have to kind of form them into is this idea of what, where was the moment where the scar happened, like [00:50:15] the wound happened, and how did the healing begin, right? And so essentially that feels very dramatic and, but it can be as small as, you know, the very first time as a leader, the very first time I gave an employee review, um, I thought I was [00:50:30] super clear. I walked out of there being super proud of myself, and the person quit the next day. My ego was crushed, right? So like there's just... It doesn't have to be this like I was devastated and over- You know, it can be like, "Wow, that was bad," you know? Or I remember the first time I [00:50:45] organized an event and nobody showed up. You know, or only five people showed up. We had a great time, but only five people showed up. Well, that's a moment where a wound kind of happened in you, and then you began the process of healing that wound and learning how to protect yourself from future wounds.[00:51:00] So really it's like what are those stories you go to often that get a good response and make good connections? Start there, and make sure that you're finding those moments of where something bad happened and here's how I grew. And then you can kind of from there expand out on other [00:51:15] things. Where are moments that I learned something? 'Cause even my Missy Elliott story, it used to just be a really funny story that I told about when I was in this music video and they called me Fat Michael Jackson. And it killed at parties, and it was just like a [00:51:30] fun anecdote kind of thing. When I actually thought back on it through a new lens, I discovered what I did learn, but I had to think what did I learn from that story? Not, "Isn't that a funny story that I was in Missy Elliott?" I had to go, what did I learn from that and how have I changed [00:51:45] because of it? That's when that story begins to matter. And so that's where I start is like, what are the stories that have always worked for you or that always come to mind? How do we put those in a framework that allows you to see what you learned from it? And we have to be honest. You [00:52:00] can't make it up. It has to be real or people will s- smell that. And then we start building from there. And then same kind of thing, I will say, like, often it'll be like, "All right, so I wanna speak on authenticity in leadership." And I will go, "Okay, but [00:52:15] what's your unique take on that?" Or, "What does everybody else get wrong?" That's often how I will do it is what does everybody else get wrong about authenticity in leadership? Because then you can say, "Well, everybody thinks authenticity is this, but it's really this." Ah, there we go. Now we have your point of [00:52:30] view, and we have an angle. Now we look for a story that can back that up that illustrates it to make it more interesting and bring more authority into that space, and then we have to quantify it in a way that actually can sell.

Kris: [00:52:43] you are brilliant. [00:52:45] You are... Wow. Okay, mic drop moment. Dr. JJ, where can we find you online?

J.J.: [00:52:52] Well, if you're interested in more discussions like this, a lot of them you can listen to me at Badass Softie, you... podcast wherever you listen to [00:53:00] podcasts. And then, drjjpeterson.com. So D-R-J-J peterson.com is my website where people reach out to me if they're interested in getting some help. I work with businesses like you, and then I also, one of the areas I'm kind of in right now is helping [00:53:15] kind of leaders take their thought leadership and turn it into frameworks, books, keynotes, and like courses, things, products they can sell.

Kris: [00:53:24] Mm, beautiful. Beautiful work. Well, thank you for being here. It's been really, really fun.

J.J.: [00:53:29] Oh, thanks [00:53:30] for having me.

Kris: [00:53:31] Is your website turning away potential clients? I can help you turn that around. Book a money-making messaging call with me today, and we'll transform your story into your most powerful sales tool. That's all [00:53:45] for this episode of From Click to Client. Don't forget to subscribe and follow. I'm Kris Jones, and I'll see you next time