Kris: [00:00:00] Heather Sager, I am so happy to have you here today. This has been a long time coming. I've actually been wanting you on the podcast for quite a long time now. And so I'm just delighted to have you here. you have had such a positive impact on my life. [00:00:15] for our listeners, Heather and I have worked together a handful of times.
Kris: [00:00:19] We did a one-on-one coaching month years ago, oh my gosh, and you really helped me get my first video out on YouTube back in the day. And, also been through [00:00:30] your program, the Signature Talk Accelerator, which was, oh my gosh, deep work, intense, so fun. So you have really helped me show up online and in person to be able to talk about what [00:00:45] I do, to become more visible, to be authentic, to have fun with it, and to not sound like everybody else.
Kris: [00:00:53] Heather, you have been on over 1,500 stages. You are just ... Like, being on stage for you is like [00:01:00] just jumping into a swimming pool, and it just easy, fun, engaging. And, I think we have a lot to learn from you today. So welcome.
Heather: [00:01:09] Oh, thank you so much, and what an intro. And I probably should clarify that jumping into a swimming pool, to me, [00:01:15] sounds horrible.
Heather: [00:01:16] I had a fear, like a massive fear of water, uh, my entire childhood, to the extent where I would sit on the edge of the pool crying while all the kids played. and even to this day as an adult, I c- I identify as a pool-adjacent person. Uh, [00:01:30] for sure. So that is a funny way to, to put my, uh ... I would much rather be on stage in front of thousands than in a swimming pool.
Kris: [00:01:38] That says a lot. That says a lot. Well, I'm really, really happy to have you here, and I, first I really wanna get [00:01:45] into what are you up to lately? Like, how has your business evolved? I know you, you moved. Heather and I both lived in Portland for many years, and I'm still in Portland. Heather has now moved.
Kris: [00:01:56] And so I wanna hear about how that shift, that [00:02:00] move, that new addition to the family, a new baby who, not so new anymore, how has all this kind of informed the new version of your business?
Heather: [00:02:10] Yeah. Okay, I love that we're starting here, and actually talking about this paired with- [00:02:15] our voices. So I actually think it's a really cool parallel.
Heather: [00:02:17] So real quick context, when I lived in Portland, I had one of those high-powered corporate jobs. I had the corner office. I ran a training team for a really successful management firm in medical, in the medical space. And [00:02:30] I definitely was in that, like, let's wear heels all the time, wear the business clothes.
Heather: [00:02:33] I drove the Lexus. I had a really, uh, let's say fancy life. The bougie life is definitely what, what I had, and I loved it. It was all of my hopes and dreams that I had in my 20s, and then when I entered my 30s [00:02:45] and started having children, I started asking big questions. And after having my second kid was when I was like, nope, can't do this anymore, and I started my business, which the whole identity crisis we have after having a child is very exciting for parents.
Heather: [00:02:56] You'll all relate with that. But the, what it comes down to is when I started my, my [00:03:00] business, my online business, I took the role of speaking coach. I had done a ton of public speaking, a ton of being on stage, but it was all masked under another brand. So I always felt like my voice always had to be polished because I wasn't just representing myself as a speaker, I was [00:03:15] also representing this entity.
Heather: [00:03:16] So I was an ambassador on behalf of this company, and I got really good at it, and I had a lot of personality, but I always felt it was, it was definitely polished. It was a version of me that was awesome, but it wasn't fully me. And when I started my business and I started [00:03:30] growing my podcast and my email newsletter, and I remember reading some of my own emails out loud of going, "Wow, this sounds like someone has like a stick up their ass.
Heather: [00:03:38] That's not how I talk to people. It's not how I talk to my friends. I'm like, what would it look like for me to sound more like me? [00:03:45] Mm. And in my content, I started saying things like instead of being nervous of public speaking, I always talked about having your underboobs be sweaty or, like, other really random things.
Heather: [00:03:53] When I would work with business owners and talk about them delivering their first big keynote, I talk about popping their stage cherry, and [00:04:00] all of these things inappropriate, but this is how I talk, right? And I don't talk like grotesquely all the time, but it's all these little unexpected moments because when I do communicate, I have a tendency to be a very polished communicator because I have done so much speaking that I found in teaching [00:04:15] communication that level of polish Was aspirational, but it wasn't very relatable to my clients.
Heather: [00:04:21] That they wanted to be like that, but they didn't see themselves in it because it was a little too advanced for them, if that makes sense.
Kris: [00:04:26] Totally.
Heather: [00:04:27] So I found myself just wanting to do more me. What [00:04:30] would it look like to bring more me? Yeah. And in all these, fast-forward, all these big life questions, business questions, I built this really incredible multiple six-figure speaking coaching business, and then my husband and I decided at the age of 40, let's just make our lives even more [00:04:45] complicated and exciting, and we moved across the state to Central Oregon.
Heather: [00:04:48] And in the same weekend we put our house on the market, we found out we were pregnant with our third child. And, uh, it's now been three years in Bend, three years in Bend, Oregon, and ugh, I [00:05:00] am the same person, but an entirely different person because not only does the way I communicate different, I'm fully myself in how I show up in my, again, my own podcast, my own emails.
Heather: [00:05:08] As you can tell on this interview, I don't hold back. I'm gonna say the weird, inappropriate shit. Yeah. but I also h- I [00:05:15] also have found that in my life too, where I'm no longer working all the time. I now have a toddler at home. I like to bake sourdough. I'm really f- asking myself big questions all the time around, one, what do I want my life to feel like?
Heather: [00:05:25] And two, how do I wanna show up in this phase in my life and in my [00:05:30] business? And I've really found that that question has evolved, and I think it continues to evolve, and I don't think business owners or professionals in general ask that question enough. How do I want to show up? How do I want my work to feel?
Heather: [00:05:41] How do I want to feel as I do that work? And I think that [00:05:45] question, uh, really opens up some really interesting answers and allows us to start thinking about how we communicate in a different way.
Kris: [00:05:51] How do you, how do you wanna feel in your work? I'm curious.
Heather: [00:05:55] Okay, so I've had this mantra for years that I use, and I used to use it on stage back when I was doing a, [00:06:00] a lot of in-person speaking, and I had this idea that, okay, whatever happens on this stage, I have three goals: I wanna make them laugh, I wanna make them cry, and sure as shit, I wanna teach them something that'll change their lives.
Heather: [00:06:10] And I've called this my speaking mantra, but really what it represents for me is I use humor, as you can tell, self-deprecating [00:06:15] humor a lot, unexpected humor in my content. I think learning and growth should be fun, otherwise it's just way too serious. but that second piece is I make people cry, and it's because I share really vulnerable, deep things.
Heather: [00:06:26] I'm not a surface level person. I really like... I wanna feel deeply connected and [00:06:30] feel like the work that I'm doing actually matters. I don't really care about teaching people how to pitch to be on more stages just so they can get more, uh, logos on their website. I care about helping people get their work in front of the people who need to hear it so their lives can change.
Heather: [00:06:42] Like for me, the deep work. I wanna feel like what I'm doing is [00:06:45] meaningful. And then that third piece, I really hate fluffy speakers who just hype people up but don't offer, okay, what do you do right now with that? What's gonna change in your life? How do you take action? So I really think I wanna feel fired up.
Heather: [00:06:56] I wanna feel excited about my life, and I want other people to have that same level of [00:07:00] excitement as they approach whatever challenge that they're facing. So deep work, enthusiasm, excitement, joy. These are all things that I think about all the time.
Kris: [00:07:07] Mm, joy is a big one. I think we can forget that. Like, let me get through this project or let me get through this [00:07:15] month, and then I'll feel the joy, but I'm learning that it's really little moments of micro joy that, that feed the soul.
Kris: [00:07:23] Yeah. Whether it's like, you know- a funny comment or ordering coffee from the [00:07:30] barista and making a joke or cuddling with my kid. Like, the little things really add up
Heather: [00:07:35] It is that, and it's not even... It, it's, the joy is a piece of it, but with so many things, we do that thing where you're saying, "Later, I'll enjoy it.
Heather: [00:07:42] Later, I'll do this. When X, Y, Z happens, then [00:07:45] I'll do whatever." It's, I call this the later lie, and a lot of us, especially coaches, who are really focused on helping people change, we push a lot of things into the future, and most of the time it is our joy. It is the celebration. It's the fun optimization of our [00:08:00] lives, and it's our health.
Heather: [00:08:01] It's how we feel. It's our relationships with our spouse or with our kids. We think that if I can get this one thing off my plate or get through this next season or whatever we have in front of us, we all come up with those BS excuses, but then later we'll get to experience the, the [00:08:15] joy from it or the benefits from it.
Heather: [00:08:16] And I, I think we all know it's bullshit, but we don't call ourselves on it, that we have to start being more aware and responsible for how we feel in the moment, having the hard conversations in the moment so that we can have [00:08:30] better, more, uh, intimate relationships in our lives. We can, choosing to say, "Hey, I gotta clean out my parents' garage because they're selling the childhood home."
Heather: [00:08:39] Okay, that doesn't sound very fun, but how can we turn that into something joyful? How could we turn that into an experience of wow, [00:08:45] like, look at all these memories that are in this thing instead of having to be this heavy thing that you have to deal with? I think every opportunity that you show up for in your business life or your personal life, you get to choose the attitude that you have with it, and that really determines your experience, and I think so many people are offloading that experience to [00:09:00] just chance, and they're just defaulting to negativity, and I don't think that we realize that it's happening.
Heather: [00:09:05] We tend to blame and complain about things that we choose in our own lives. Uh, I think your experience totally changes when you start owning why you're showing up and treat the experience better [00:09:15]
Kris: [00:09:15] Oh my gosh, yeah. I love what you shared about the later lie. I think that, like even naming it is a way to identify it, because it's so believable when you're in the thick of it.
Kris: [00:09:26] I'll just speak for me. I really believe it when I'm like, "No, for [00:09:30] real, once this is done, then..." And, and it's, it is. It's total bullshit, and it's, you know, y- if you kind of look back over the years, I can reflect on the ever presence of that. but I appreciate the name.
Kris: [00:09:44] Yeah, that's [00:09:45] great.
Heather: [00:09:45] I'll add this real quick- Yeah, yeah ... is that right now as we're recording, I don't know when this will air, but the back to school season, e- everyone, it's always so busy. When we get through that, the holiday season, it comes every year, and everybody chooses to all declare it's the busy season, it's miserable.
Heather: [00:09:57] Once we get through the holidays, once we... Like, there... [00:10:00] It's culturally, it's just accepted, and just challenge that if you want to show up better, you have to think not just about your, quote-unquote, "visibility opportunities" when the spotlight's on you. Think about how you show up every single day, what your attitude is, because that's what's [00:10:15] going to trickle over and make your visibility opportunities either be really powerful or just kind of, I hate to use this word because it's totally ChatGPT, but like performative.
Heather: [00:10:23] There is a difference when you're not in congruency in your personal life and your attitude versus your, quote-unquote, "stage life." People can [00:10:30] sense it, and I think people are noticing now that, like more than ever.
Kris: [00:10:33] How do you, how d- how do you, tackle that? Like, how do you make that happen, or how do you help your clients embody that?
Heather: [00:10:41] Yeah. So this... Okay, so we, we mentioned my business has changed a lot over the years. So when it started, I [00:10:45] was doing speaker coaching, and what I was always really deeply passionate about was I wanna help people shine in those onstage moments, but it was less really about nailing a keynote. My thought was, if I can help a client nail a keynote presentation or a signature talk, then they're going to learn how to [00:11:00] become better communicators offstage.
Heather: [00:11:01] So I really focused on those big, stressful moments that people paid attention to with communication, and then it would trickle over. And what I've realized over the last couple years is- While I loved that, I really don't care [00:11:15] about someone giving a keynote. That, to me, it's one moment in time, and I don't work with professional speakers, people who want to build their whole business around speaking on stages.
Heather: [00:11:22] I work with people who are like me. They probably work from a home office, and they have a flexible schedule, and they are damn good at what they do, and they wanna make the [00:11:30] biggest impact possible without it overrunning their lives. They still wanna have the health, they still wanna have the relationships, but they want to be that go-to person.
Heather: [00:11:36] So when I started thinking about that, I'm like, "Why am I not just honing in and talking about communication for experts? Why am I not just claiming and, [00:11:45] and owning this idea that when you show up and communicate, whether it is on a stage, or on a podcast, or on a sales call, or on your own TikTok account, like whenever you show up in the business but also outside of the business, you need to show up at your best because it's the sum of all those moments that actually create your brand.[00:12:00]
Heather: [00:12:00] And so coming back to your question, right, how do you really... how do I help people with that? I moved into what I call high performance coaching, and that's really where I help people become a lot more aware of how they show up both in their business and outside of their business to show up at their best and succeed while maintaining their [00:12:15] relationships and maintaining their overall health.
Heather: [00:12:17] So the first step is helping people become a hell of a lot more aware of how they show up because most of us treat talking like breathing. It's just gonna happen. We do it ev- we've been doing it since we were little kids with our little rambling gibberish. [00:12:30] We talk, but we don't ever really think about the fact that we're talking until there is that high-pressure moment, and then we stress all hell about that moment.
Heather: [00:12:38] So I help my clients start thinking about everyday micro moments when they communicate. How do they become more aware of how they're coming across? How do we [00:12:45] start understanding, okay, if you're not very good at thinking on your feet, you have to understand maybe you're not an external processor. Maybe you're an internal processor, and you have to learn how to externally speak as an internal processor.
Heather: [00:12:57] You gotta learn more about yourself. But [00:13:00] self-awareness is always the first step, and most people are unwilling to look at how they show up right now is because they, they're embarrassed by watching their own videos or role-playing or these things that don't even involve other people. We're so afraid of our own voices and so afraid of [00:13:15] judgment, even of ourselves, that we're unwilling to work on it, so we s- like pull off the Band-Aid and start there.
Kris: [00:13:20] Oh my gosh. That's so good. you had mentioned a while back, I heard you sharing a story about how you [00:13:30] decided, "I'm going to overcome whatever this resistance is, and I'm gonna make that little camera on the top of my monitor my bitch."
Heather: [00:13:40] Yeah,
Kris: [00:13:40] I did
Heather: [00:13:40] say that.
Kris: [00:13:41] And and I, I love that because [00:13:45] it feels, safe, you know?
Kris: [00:13:46] But it's also v- very important forward action to really becoming more comfortable on camera, to really getting to witness w- where are you talking that's working, and in what [00:14:00] ways are you communicating that are not helpful? Or what are the kind of the little habits or ticks that you have when you talk?
Kris: [00:14:06] Tell us about that. Like, what happened for you? What, what happened when you decided to do that, and how did that unfold? How long did it take for you [00:14:15] to get comfortable with this?
Heather: [00:14:16] Yeah. Okay. So this is a really interesting topic, because most people when they think speaking, they think about being on a physical stage, and it's really fascinating.
Heather: [00:14:23] At this stage in my business, a lot of people are coming to me saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm so comfortable on video. I'm so comfortable on [00:14:30] webinars. I'm so comfortable on virtual," but they're terrified of the stage, and it's... Uh, the reason why it's interesting is because for me, seven years ago it was the opposite.
Heather: [00:14:36] People were like, "I'm comfortable on stages, but video is terrifying." So how the pendulum swings in, in, in our world. But so for me, back when I was doing all of my public [00:14:45] speaking, I was showing up on a physical stage of some sort literally every day in my career. So whether I was leading, virtual calls, or we had a training center in Scottsdale, so I was l- literally leading workshops in person all the time.
Heather: [00:14:56] I was on physical stages in Las Vegas. I would fly, I- all over the world [00:15:00] teaching these seminars. So I got really good at being on a physical stage, whether it was 2,000s or in a room of 10 people. I got really good, and I wanna, I wanna clarify this piece, is for me, why I became good is because I got really curious.
Heather: [00:15:13] I started noticing, huh, when do [00:15:15] people lean in? When do they lean out and start playing Candy Crush? When do they engage in the questions that I ask? I would go back, I remember, ugh, this would make me cringe, but before I would give my opening keynote for the certain event, I would always watch the video from the previous time, and I would do it in my [00:15:30] hotel room the night before the event.
Heather: [00:15:31] And I remember one time I was watching this video. I had to wear this... At the time we had to wear polo shirts for this company, and I was wearing this hideous purple polo shirt, uh, in, in this, in this video. But I remember watching it, and I remember thinking like, "What the hell am I doing with my hand?" [00:15:45] And I, I had the clicker in my right hand, but I kept fidgeting with it.
Heather: [00:15:48] And when I set the clicker down, I started fidgeting with my watch, and then I was fidgeting with my necklace, and I'm like, "What is happening?" And when I was... This specific example, I, I think I had been speaking on stages at that company for maybe six months, so I was [00:16:00] really starting to ask questions of how am I coming across right now?
Heather: [00:16:02] And my original question that I was asking was, "What the hell did I say last time?" So I could duplicate it, but then I started realizing, whoa, I was doing these weird things on stage. So I noticed, and then I made changes. I decided to remove all of my jewelry, [00:16:15] and I had to fill, like put that clicker in my hand and be aware of how I was holding it.
Heather: [00:16:19] I bring all this up because when I started my online business, it's hilarious. I had been speaking on stages, and like put me in any scenario, I could, I could deliver world-class- business sermon on a [00:16:30] dime, right? And you can tell I'm not a short-winded person, right? I, I can go. But put me in front of the video camera, and I could not get a sentence out.
Heather: [00:16:38] All of the sudden, my voice would change, and I have, like, a reporter voice. And I'm like- ... "Who is this person talking?" And I [00:16:45] could... Like, every w- sentence was connected with the words and so. It was the world's most run-on sentence there ever was, which I wasn't even aware of at the time. But I could not get my ideas across, and more importantly, I did not like who was showing up to those videos because my [00:17:00] voice got higher.
Heather: [00:17:01] It sounded... It reminded me when I would be in a boardroom with people who had 20 years of experience over me, and I'd s- act, like, weird and awkward, like I was really trying to prove myself. That's how I showed up on video, and I hated it. And so when I started... There's my and connecting everything together.
Heather: [00:17:14] You get a [00:17:15] little sample there. Uh, but when I started doing video, I'm like, "I, I have to get over this fear." And well, that's when I said, "I'm gonna make this camera my bitch." So I said, "What did I do to get more comfortable, and not just comfortable, but really damn good on stages?" I practiced every [00:17:30] single day.
Heather: [00:17:31] And not only did I practice, I went back and watched the game tapes. So this was back in 2018, where Facebook Live, I would say, was at its peak. I went live every week on Facebook. I had my own little show. I created a little intro for it, a little title. I would go live and [00:17:45] talk, uh, on a topic, and then what I did is I...
Heather: [00:17:48] This is back when captions were s- terrible, and you would... Uh, it was a really complicated process how to turn on cap- captions, but they were, they were not accurate. So I would go through and hand key and fix all of the captions- Wow ... of the [00:18:00] videos. And it was through doing that, which side note, if y'all are listening going, "Oh, there's so much more efficient ways to do that," that wasn't the point.
Heather: [00:18:06] I wasn't trying to be efficient. What I wanted to do was literally painstakingly hear and see everything I did in those videos, [00:18:15] and I hated every second of it. And I was like, "Oh man, why is everything a question mark? Why is everything running together? Why am I saying 'and so' and s- so much? Why are my hands doing that?
Heather: [00:18:22] Like, what's up with my left eyebrow?" Like, all these stupid things. But it wasn't until I was able to stare it in the eye and have such an [00:18:30] annoyingly pissed off nature of level of awareness that I then could create change the next time I recorded. The next time I record it, I'm like, "I'm gonna pause for a second and breathe instead of saying so many filler words.
Heather: [00:18:42] I'm going to look at the camera instead of my [00:18:45] face on the reflection." Like in real time that next week I can make another change, and I just think so many people are unwilling to do these little details I'm talking about here because right now we're in an era where everybody wants to spend less time doing their work.
Heather: [00:18:59] We want [00:19:00] more efficiency, and let me just tell y'all this, efficiency does not create skills. In fact, it shortcuts them, and I think it degrades skills. So if there are areas in your business where you need to have world-class skills, stop outsourcing it. Stop trying to [00:19:15] shortcut it, and do the painstakingly freaking annoying work of building the skill, which is gonna suck, but hot damn can I tell you I sure know how to make the camera my bitch now.
Heather: [00:19:24] I mean, I've been staring at the little black hole. Kris, your face is over on my left. I haven't looked at you once during this entire probably very long TED [00:19:30] Talk I just made. I know how to look at that camera and maintain a level of charisma, eye contact, body language, facial expressions, my voice cadence.
Heather: [00:19:38] Sure, I used some filler words, but we can talk about that in a minute. there's actually a reason I use those now. Uh, anyways, all this to be said, you, you gotta [00:19:45] figure out what's the skill you're trying to learn and embrace the suckiness of it.
Kris: [00:19:49] Yeah. Wow. How long did it take you until you reached a point where you were like, "This is so much better.
Kris: [00:19:57] I'm not... It's not torture for me to watch myself on camera [00:20:00] anymore"?
Heather: [00:20:03] Okay, random. This is very random. Here's how I'm gonna answer your question. The other day I was looking at my toddler, and I don't know if you remember this with your young kids, you know how, like, little kids don't have kneecaps?
Kris: [00:20:13] Yeah.
Heather: [00:20:13] It's very random.
Kris: [00:20:14] Yeah. [00:20:15]
Heather: [00:20:15] I looked at my little one, he's almost three, and he doesn't have kneecaps, and I realized, when did my older two c- kids, who are eight and 11, when the hell did they get kneecaps?
Heather: [00:20:23] I have no idea. It's just one day they had kneecaps. And I don't know when it happened. And that's what happened for me with [00:20:30] video. Yeah. I have no idea when it happened, and what I will tell you is it probably...
Heather: [00:20:37] My confidence and skills probably came in stages, where when I look back, even at my videos... Actually, if [00:20:45] you type in Heather Saker hand gestures into YouTube, you will see a video I probably did maybe six months into me practicing video, and at the time, I'm like, "This is so much better." I now look at it and I'm like, "That is so terrible."
Heather: [00:20:57] You can actually see my voice is [00:21:00] much higher. I look like I'm trying to be a certain persona on camera. Like, how I talk today is drastically different than how I- Mm-hmm ... talked six, seven years ago. Mm-hmm. But at the time, I was like, "Oh, this is so much better." I couldn't even get a sentence out six months prior.
Heather: [00:21:13] So I, I was able to [00:21:15] start going from... What I didn't share with you is my first month of doing this, I did, definitely did not go live on Facebook. It was just me and my webcam saved on my remote desktop. Like, I didn't put it anywhere. It was just me and the camera. It was just private, and it was very cringey, very awkward.
Heather: [00:21:28] So, but I think I started [00:21:30] going live within 90 days, and then from that, I sort of started posting to YouTube, and then from there, I created my podcast. And then now it's been, I don't know, six, seven years since I released my podcast. Oh
Kris: [00:21:39] my gosh. And yeah. And at what point, at what point in that journey were you like, "I'm showing up [00:21:45] very polished, but this is not me"?
Kris: [00:21:47] And what was w- what was the process of really kind of unlearning that polishedness? 'Cause I lo- like, the way you show up on your podcast is so refreshing. I [00:22:00] love the F-bombs, whatever, like, whatever it takes. Like you just... There's no filter, and I think, like, that type of realness is, I think people are really hungry for it.
Kris: [00:22:10] Yeah. And I think it just feels good, and it's, and [00:22:15] it's way more fun. so how did you kind of... How did you undo that? 'Cause I would say, like- I'm similar in that I can show up, I can be polished. I think people think of me as maybe [00:22:30] more polished or maybe more put together. But if you really know me, I'm very much not.
Kris: [00:22:36] Like, really, like, I, yeah. And so I'm just curious, like, how did you unlearn You must unlearn what you have learned. Yes. How [00:22:45] did you do
Heather: [00:22:45] it? So I think it's a, a matter of constantly asking yourself the question around what are my goals, uh, who am I talking to, and how can I show up as the best version of myself today?
Heather: [00:22:54] And I know that sounds kind of cheesy, but that it wasn't... It was less of how do I sound less [00:23:00] polished, and more of how can I resonate more with my ideal client. Right. And so this I actually wanna point out real quick. One of the things that's really fascinating, when people would come to me for the Signature Talk Accelerator, and they really wanted to nail down their messaging.
Heather: [00:23:12] Yeah. They knew they were experts, but they were suffering from the curse of the expert, [00:23:15] which means they could talk about their stuff in circles, but other people didn't quite get it. Right. Or they'd politely nod their head, but they really weren't invested. They didn't understand why do I need this now, why me, why you, all these things.
Heather: [00:23:24] And what would happen is people would come to me, and they were so focused on wanting to get their [00:23:30] message right. They're like, "Give me the structure so that I say it in the right way so that people will buy." Like, that's essentially what people were saying without saying it. Yeah. And I, over the years I have gotten much better at not trying to be like a nice way to put [00:23:45] it.
Heather: [00:23:45] I would just flat out tell my clients, "Stop that shit," right? You're... We're not here to get it right. Nobody wants right. People want to resonate with what you're saying, so we're going for resonation over right here, okay? So when I started realizing that of [00:24:00] myself, I would think about my content, right? So l- let's take my weekly newsletter as an example.
Heather: [00:24:03] I would write an email, and what would happen is as I was writing my email, I would then read it out loud. And I was reading out loud, anywhere where it sounded a little clunky, I, I could feel the friction in me saying, [00:24:15] "This is not how I would say it." So I would move to, well, how would I actually say it?
Heather: [00:24:19] And one of the exercises I know you and I have done before, uh, but I would do to myself, is I would tell my clients, "How would you say this if you were three margaritas deep?" And that right there is like the opener for so many people. They [00:24:30] would say it so much simpler, and that's how I helped a lot of people come up with their core message and better ways to explain their shit.
Heather: [00:24:35] But I started doing that on myself, is, well, how would I actually say it? And then I realized that's way more interesting. I don't, I don't want to read about, I don't know, generic things around [00:24:45] messaging. Uh, be more aligned. Uh, live a better li- like j- I don't wanna read that stuff, and nobody else does either.
Heather: [00:24:50] When you use language that's unexpected, that's, authentic, that just, I don't know, it's enjoyable to read, again, bringing a joy to what you're doing, I think when we start thinking about [00:25:00] that, it starts... We start asking the questions, how would I communicate this like a real person to another real person versus as an entity trying to position myself as the expert.
Heather: [00:25:08] So long, very long-winded, as we learned here- Mm-hmm ... uh, way to say I don't know that I ever was like let me remove the polish. I [00:25:15] think I just decided- I'm going to stop trying to position myself as the first impression, I don't know, polished version, and just go, "You know what? Maybe I'm not gonna build the fricking multi-million dollar company if I [00:25:30] built myself as this like look at me in my fancy heels and my fancy cars," which by the way, I got rid of all of those things when I moved to Bend.
Heather: [00:25:35] Uh, what if I was the bitch in the kitchen with the sourdough, uh, talking over B-roll while my kids are going crazy in the background, but talking about my first presentation and where I got it wrong and where you can learn from that? [00:25:45] Like- Mm ... what if I just shared my life more authentically? And here's the key that I want you all to hear.
Heather: [00:25:50] Yes, I'm real. Yes, I say these really inappropriate things that we have just, uh, established in today's episode. But the content and what I teach is [00:26:00] really freaking good. I have simple systems. I have frameworks that I have named, AKA the later lie, and some other things we'll get into, right? I have really strong substance, and I think this is where people really like muck it up, is they try to be too friendly and [00:26:15] "Hey, girl" and casual, but then they lack the substance that translates to other people.
Heather: [00:26:20] So you have to come across as wicked freaking smart, and that for me, I'm wicked freaking smart. I'm really good at taking complex ideas and making them simple, uh, making them pedestrian, if you will, so [00:26:30] other people can get it. But I don't talk like a snuffy snooty person. I talk like a real person, and the juxtaposition of those two things is my brand.
Heather: [00:26:37] It's why it works so well. But if you have really basic content and you're just regu- regurgitating basic shit that people already [00:26:45] know, and you talk like a basic bitch like me, those two things together are not gonna position you as the expert. So I wanna make sure that I'm not confusing being casual or plainspoken with my language and a little weird.
Heather: [00:26:56] You have to pair that with really good [00:27:00] content. And the cool part is, if you're listening to this show, if you're really good at what you do, I wonder, I just wonder how much you dilute what you do because you generalize it and you try to make it reach so many people that you're actually diluting your work, and therefore people don't see it as good as it [00:27:15] actually is
Kris: [00:27:15] Mm.
Kris: [00:27:17] Mic drop.
Heather: [00:27:17] Yeah.
Kris: [00:27:19] You talked about walking, walk the talk, talk the walk. What does that mean? Tell, tell us what's been ruminating in your brain about, around
Heather: [00:27:28] that. Okay. So I was sharing a bit of this before. I [00:27:30] haven't shared this publicly, but I have had a goal of wanting to write a book, like, my entire career.
Heather: [00:27:34] This has always been on my list of I wanna run a marathon and I wanna write a book, these two things. I'm working on the marathon right now. I have registered for a half-marathon in April, get my, get my post-baby ass back in gear. But the book piece, I've [00:27:45] always asked the question, what do I wanna write a book on?
Heather: [00:27:47] And going back to what we talked about, I didn't really want my book to be about how to deliver a great stage talk. Like, I knew that was a piece of it, but it wasn't the thing. And what's really come up for me over the last two years is- I've been playing with this idea [00:28:00] of so many of the people that I work with at the executive level, I work with a lot of founders and executives, and where they struggle is, yes, how they communicate, but they're struggling with things like boundaries.
Heather: [00:28:10] They're struggling with the, uh, they're overworking in the office. They're- they have so many [00:28:15] emails, but they tell their teams, like, "Take the weekend. Don't email at night," but they're emailing at night. And a lot of executives, uh, they're really good at what they do, but they aren't walking the right talk, so we need to work on how do you actually show up as the best version of yourself?
Heather: [00:28:28] How do you actually walk that talk and not just [00:28:30] say it? But on the other end, I think equally so, there are so many really strong leaders and really strong experts who over the years have a really good walk. They have the street cred. They have the experience. They know what they're doing, but they have relied on their [00:28:45] work speaking for itself, relied on word of mouth and referrals, and I get that because I'm a huge relationship person.
Heather: [00:28:50] In fact, I wrote a whole email about it this morning around how all my speaking opportunities are from relationships and referrals. But there comes a point where you have to be able to communicate, one, what it is that [00:29:00] you do, two, why people should care, and three, how to get people to, like, engage in your work, right?
Heather: [00:29:05] You have to be able to talk the walk. You can't just be good at what you do. And I think these two things, we're headed into an era that they're going to be more important now than ever. I think we have to, we have to [00:29:15] have a better walk because with the h- introduction of AI over the last few years and the mainstreaming of it, I don't know if that's a word, but we're gonna make it, but so many people using it to create content, to create efficiencies in their business, I think people are really looking for those who have [00:29:30] actually walked in the shoes that the person's wanting to learn from, right?
Heather: [00:29:34] I think a lot of people are getting good at messaging and marketing from AI, but there's no substance around it. So I think the people who know how to walk the talk, they're really going to come out, but only if they can talk their [00:29:45] walk, meaning- Mm ... they can articulate their value. They can speak in a way that gets other people not just to listen, but it holds that attention, right?
Heather: [00:29:53] I think, I don't know if you've been following online, there's a lot of people who are getting really good at writing hooks. You can get a video. You can [00:30:00] get someone to listen, but have you ex- had that experience where you start listening to someone's video and then realize that, oh my gosh, this entire thing is a ChatGPT script.
Heather: [00:30:06] I'm out. Yeah. Right? But when you have someone who is messy, and maybe it had a good book, maybe it didn't, but they start talking, and you just resonate, and you like that person, right? There's substance there, yes, as [00:30:15] we determined that has to happen, but there's something about the way that they communicate that you're like, "Hot damn, I really resonate with this person."
Heather: [00:30:21] I think those are the people who are going to shine, and I don't think this is a personality trait. I think this is a skill that so many people could master. They're just not noticing they [00:30:30] need to.
Kris: [00:30:30] How would one go about mastering that skill?
Heather: [00:30:33] Yeah. Okay, well, it goes back to what we said before, awareness.
Heather: [00:30:35] So my question for all of you is when was the last time you watched one of your own videos? And watched it, now let me clarify, watched it from a productive point of view. [00:30:45] And what I mean by that, it's too many times my clients will watch their videos and all they focus on are the things that they cannot change.
Heather: [00:30:51] Case example for me, the joke I always make, why is my left, left eyebrow so overactive, but for the life of me I cannot raise my right eyebrow? That, I've tried it. There's nothing changeable about that. For some [00:31:00] reason, the muscles in my face, the right eyebrow does not work on its own. Like, I... I'm doing it right now.
Heather: [00:31:04] For those on audio, it looks really weird. Right? That is not a productive thing to focus on. For me to be like, "Oh, here's another one I totally criticize myself about," my upper lip doesn't move when I talk. I have to consciously think about smiling [00:31:15] to show my teeth, otherwise when I talk it's just my bottom lip showing my bottom teeth, which is highly unattractive, but I can't do anything about it unless I focus and smile, but if I smile the time, that's weird.
Heather: [00:31:22] Okay, I'm using these really weird examples on myself to show you this is what most people focus on, is why do I look weird? Why do I sound [00:31:30] weird? Things that are, like, not really changeable. Or another one, this was me postpartum, I hated how I looked on camera because I had gained so much weight during pregnancy, and I was bloated, and my skin was not great, and I didn't have time to get my hair done, and my grays were showing, and ugh.
Heather: [00:31:44] [00:31:45] So many women especially, because of their weight or because of their feeling, they just nitpick the shit out of themselves on camera. My question for you is, is it helpful to focus your energy on those pieces, or is it a hindrance to you getting your message out? So when we, we have to focus on [00:32:00] productive when we, when we watch our videos.
Heather: [00:32:02] So how do we be more productive? We ask questions, can we change it, right? Okay, how can I say that better? Okay, how can I hold better eye contact? Ooh, I'm looking at the screen, not on there. Where do I look? Let me open up my camera and test it and see if it works. [00:32:15] Holy crap, I talk really fast. Is that a bad thing?
Heather: [00:32:17] Not always a bad thing. As you notice, I talk really fast. I think people's brains move fast. Like, don't talk slow. It's boring. We all wanna put things in 2X speed. Like, think about how do you phrase things better? Did it take you forever to get to your point? The question [00:32:30] is, are you gonna talk about this topic again?
Heather: [00:32:31] Yes? Okay, then it's worth practicing it and saying, "What was my point? And next time can I start at the point and then back it up?" Versus ramble my way to the point just to figure out what I'm saying. You see what I'm getting at here? Mm-hmm. Is focus on watching your own shit, and then asking [00:32:45] productive questions that are changeable and practicable, and then improve on the next one.
Heather: [00:32:49] And when I say the next one, don't wait a week. Do it again that day or the next day. Like, put in the reps. These things can be changeable very, very quickly. Uh, case in point, back when I was on stage and my hand gestures were super weird, [00:33:00] I literally used to walk around my office. Back, I would take all of my phone calls...
Heather: [00:33:04] Um, I have hearing aids, so I stream phone calls in my hearing aids I would take everything standing up, and it wasn't a video call, it was audio calls, but I would walk around my office, moving my [00:33:15] hands around like I was speaking on a stage to start training my brain how should my hands move when I speak.
Heather: [00:33:21] Because here's, here's what's interesting. All of y'all think that this practice stuff, like, I don't know. I don't know what we're trying to do with it, but what I want you to think about, let me use the analogy of a [00:33:30] sports, a sports person. A sports person. Um, I'm watching Ted Lasso right now, so it's about soccer.
Heather: [00:33:37] Yeah. Athletes, right? When they do practice, so on game day, on game day they just do what they've been trained to do. The coach isn't [00:33:45] calling, like telling the striker when to go or who to pass to. The coach's job is during practice. On the game, your just natural instincts come out, so training is into work.
Heather: [00:33:52] This, this is the same thing with speaking. You can't try a hand gesture tick, uh, trick when you're recording a video live. You can't think about how do I use [00:34:00] better, sh- perspective shifting psychology in my keynote? It's not, you're not gonna remember to do it, and you're gonna fumble the punchline of a joke.
Heather: [00:34:07] Or if you're trying to memorize your script, you're gonna screw it up. You have to practice outside of the actual game so that when you do show up, it's [00:34:15] just ingrained. So for me, the hand gestures. I practiced all the time so when I got on stage, the last thing I was thinking about was what I was doing with my hands.
Heather: [00:34:22] Mm-hmm. I think this is what we need to ingrain in our brains more. Where are we focused? How are we showing up? What can we fix? And then how can we practice to make it second nature? [00:34:30]
Kris: [00:34:30] Hmm. Yeah, and you could even have, you know, Claude or ChatGPT uh, come up with prompts for you to tackle every day, and then you just answer those questions in five, 10 minutes every day, and-
Heather: [00:34:42] Yeah
Kris: [00:34:42] by the end of a month, you're in a totally different [00:34:45] place.
Heather: [00:34:45] Yep. Yeah. You can think about it. Put Claude... I haven't done this before. I have a different exercise I do with clients, but you can put into Claude and say, "Hey, you're, uh, my PR media coach," right? Mm-hmm. And make sure you're very clear, right? You don't want it to give you any scripts or any talking points.
Heather: [00:34:57] This is very important that you come up with these things on your own, [00:35:00] otherwise you're gonna get into reciting mode, and reciting mode never sounds authentic. I'm gonna be honest with all of you. None of y'all are Hollywood actors- No ... like A-list actors that are, like, really good, like, believable characters.
Heather: [00:35:10] You're not Ted Lasso here, okay? So when y'all recite scripts, my [00:35:15] brain, and most people's brains, tune out. Even though it might be the right words, what did we say earlier? It's not about getting it right, it's about resonating. Right. And the delivery of a recited script, it's like nails on a chalkboard right now.
Heather: [00:35:26] You can
Kris: [00:35:26] feel it. So
Heather: [00:35:26] please stop
Kris: [00:35:26] doing it. You can feel it. It doesn't matter how [00:35:30] well you know the content, you really can feel it on the other end. one of the things that I do a lot with friends is Marco Polo. Yeah. And Marco Polo is a really great app. Number one, it's a great way to just stay connected with other people, but it [00:35:45] also forces you to look at your own self when you're talking to friends.
Kris: [00:35:48] So I feel like that has been a really good tool for me just to- three margaritas in kind of vibe with friends, but having to [00:36:00] watch myself deliver information.
Heather: [00:36:01] Yeah, I love it. I think you and I may have used Marco Polo early. That was what I used in my business early on with all of my clients, I used Marco Polo.
Heather: [00:36:07] I forgot about that. But it was back when Marco Polo was free, so you could watch things in, like, 2X speed, and they made it paid, so I've since moved to Voxer for that. [00:36:15] But that, I forgot about that. That video piece of everyday conversations, what's fascinating, uh, it... You start off by really thinking about what you look like, and then within a week you're, like...
Heather: [00:36:25] I don't know, it's looking up your nose while you're talking- ... and brushing your teeth or whatever, right? You, you get over it pretty quickly. Right. But yeah, [00:36:30] if there's a, if there's a sting of how you look on camera, you just need to normalize it by, by doing it as much as possible. I find Instagram Stories is a really great way to get over this, because they disappear in 24 hours.
Heather: [00:36:42] Now, the big asterisk to this is a lot of [00:36:45] people hear that and they're like, "Ooh, okay, let me focus on making really good Instagram stories." I don't want you to focus on trying to create effective content that converts or trying to have a strategy around it. The strategy is to not pee your pants when you create video, right?
Heather: [00:36:57] That's like step number one. If you're fearful of it or you're uncomfortable with it [00:37:00] or you sound like that really polished, stick-up-your-ass, no offense, but that's probably not resonating with your clients right now, right? So thinking about, how can I show up more authentically with good substance?
Heather: [00:37:11] Remember that pairing there. How could I do that? And don't [00:37:15] worry about whether or not your Instagram stories are getting the replies or the views, or don't look at any metrics. You're doing this for you. You're not doing it for anybody else but for you in the beginning so that you can build that habit and that comfort and that level of awareness, so then you can get to the good part where you start optimizing it and making it better.
Kris: [00:37:29] Oh, I love [00:37:30] it. I love it. This has been packed with so much incredible information, Heather. Thank you. I want to wrap up today with two questions. Number one, I really wanna hear, like, what's the difference for a coach or a consultant that just does not wanna be [00:37:45] visible? Like, what do you do in that case?
Kris: [00:37:47] Like, are they able to effectively grow, reach the right people, versus somebody who's willing to- Take the leap, get uncomfortable, get more visible, whether it's on podcasts or on [00:38:00] actual stages. Like, what's the path for the both of those people?
Heather: [00:38:04] Okay, I love that you asked this question, because I think so often we see so many examples of really visible people, and we think, "Oh, that's what I have to do too."
Heather: [00:38:10] And I'll use the example I sent in my newsletter this morning, where I was talking about relationships. I know a lot [00:38:15] of people in my business world that really love finding all the events going on in the industry, and then completing the speaker applications so they can be in the summit, they can be at the event.
Heather: [00:38:24] Like, they love just getting themselves out there. Weird thing for me, uh, I hate, with my [00:38:30] whole heart, any kind of form. I will not fill it out. In fact, that... I don't, fill it out. My personal assistant does it. But to take it a step further, I do not fill out speaker forms. So if someone, let's even say, someone invites me on their summit, and then sends me, "Here's my speaker application," I politely say, "No, thank you."
Heather: [00:38:43] Like, I will speak, but I will [00:38:45] not be filling out your form. Like, I don't s- fill out forms. And I used to think this was an asshole admission, but I just... I don't have to. I don't, I don't have to do that. I get plenty of speaking opportunities, and if somebody has an issue with that, I'm not gonna speak at their event.
Heather: [00:38:55] I bring this up because we're conditioned to do things a certain [00:39:00] way. In order to find opportunities, you have to be willing to pitch, you have to have your media kit. Like, my me- I still don't have a speaker page, y'all. Let me just tell... I don't have a speaker page, and I have made multiple six figures from speaking, like in speaking fees, okay?
Heather: [00:39:13] You don't have to do [00:39:15] what anyone tells you you have to do. What you have to figure out is what are my goals, what are my strengths, and what's the strategy to get there? Now, if you make up the strategy from scratch, just know that who knows if it's gonna work, right? But you can find other people to model.
Heather: [00:39:27] So let me just tell you this. There are a bajillion [00:39:30] examples of people who are super visible that do super well. There are also a lot of examples that you probably don't see of people who are not very visible and still do very, very well. The question that I would be asking is what is the business model?
Heather: [00:39:43] And this is what I ask with all of my clients. [00:39:45] If you have a business model where you're a coach, and you work one-on-one with people, you do not need to go on Instagram and build this huge-ass audience, because you only work with a handful of people every month. You just don't need the marketing and the brand to back up [00:40:00] w- your business model.
Heather: [00:40:01] Now, if you're trying to do a business model where you're selling low-ticket digital offers, well, yeah, you're gonna need the audience, but even then, you could do paid ads. There's always a different approach. My question for you would be are you saying, "I don't wanna be visible," because you're scared of it?
Heather: [00:40:14] Okay? That... [00:40:15] Be aware of it. Are you willing to get over that fear? But the bigger question is, is the work that you're doing, do more people need to hear it? And do you want to be the person to share your story to help them hear it? And if there is that deep desire there that you [00:40:30] wanna help more people, don't try to attack the fear with more courage.
Heather: [00:40:33] Attack the fear with more skill. Okay? Ooh, that sounded good, didn't it? Right?
Kris: [00:40:37] Ooh, duh.
Heather: [00:40:38] But that, like, you don't have to muster up the courage, you just have to get, get skill going. So figuring out where can I grow this skill, where can I get the practice, [00:40:45] as we talked about today, even if it's just with yourself.
Heather: [00:40:47] In the beginning, it's all about getting more comfortable for you to show up, and then you can make it good. So I don't know, long-winded way, you could build your business however you wanna build your business, but don't make that decision out of fear. Think about the best version of [00:41:00] you and the business that you wanna have five years from now.
Heather: [00:41:03] How does she show up? How does he treat content? How does he look at visibility? Is it strategic? Is it a necessary evil? Is it a, "Ugh, I hate it. It's not worth its time"? Remember earlier when [00:41:15] I said the energy and attitude you bring to things determines your success in all facets of your life? This is one of those examples.
Heather: [00:41:21] So if you have a shitty attitude around visibility, you're gonna get shitty results and have a shitty experience with it. If you have a intimidated attitude around visibility, [00:41:30] ask yourself better questions, and, uh, connect it to your bigger vision around what you're trying to create, and you'll find you're a hell of a lot more willing to get uncomfortable to make it happen.
Kris: [00:41:38] Mm. Wow. Just a moment to just let that all soak in. Heather, [00:41:45] thank you for being here today. Tell us how we can get more of you and find you and potentially work with you.
Heather: [00:41:52] Yeah, I'd love that. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share. So couple things. If you're listening to the podcast right now, you're most likely a podcaster and like me, you like to have things in your ears.
Heather: [00:41:59] And [00:42:00] if you love the idea of getting fired up and the weird way that I communicated today, you're like, "Hell yeah, I wanna learn business and how to show up better," uh, the best place to go is my podcast. It's called Hint of Hustle with Heather Sager, so we can link that here. Um, that last piece when you talked about visibility, a lot of people, they get stuck on [00:42:15] visibility because they've had experiences where they've done a lot of work to show up, but it's not had a lot of payoff.
Heather: [00:42:20] And what I find is a lot of business owners don't know how to get a return on that visibility. And so if that's a challenge for you, whether you're showing up for podcast interviews or you're showing up for your own [00:42:30] stages, or you wanna get more into guest speaking but you just don't really know if it's worth your time, you can check out...
Heather: [00:42:35] I have a free guide around speaking and how to get a better ROI. One of those places is how to get paid, but there are three other types of currencies that you can generate a kickback on. Uh, if you wanna grab that, you can head on [00:42:45] over to heatherSager.com/guide, and I'll teach you my strategy for speaking, how you get a return, and I'll give you some specific tactics that you can use to milk more juice from those speaking opportunities.
Kris: [00:42:54] Incredible. Thank you so much. We'll have to do it again.
Heather: [00:42:57] You're welcome.
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