The Storytelling Secret Behind High-Converting Websites with Mark & Katie Adams

Speaker: [00:00:00] I had such a wonderful time talking with Mark on the Unforget Yourself Show that I wanted to share it with you here today. Enjoy.

Welcome to from Click to Client, where we transform a confusing message into a clear, compelling story that sells. I'm your host, Kris Jones, StoryBrand marketing expert. I'm here to help you attract more dream clients with the power of story.

So today we have with us Kris Jones, founder of Red Door Designs, who help service-based businesses transform their websites into compelling narratives through a signature storytelling system with a strategic blend of storytelling and conversion optimization.

Kris guide coaches and consultants to replace complex marketing with a single. Powerful story, helping them achieve dramatic revenue growth and client attraction. Now, Kris's evolution from designing for Nike and Adidas to helping small business [00:01:00] owners demonstrates the power of authentic storytelling and drawing.

From 23 years of experience, she's now helping service providers turn their expertise into websites that sell 24 7. Because that's the points. Beautiful. Kris, welcome to the show. Ah, I'm thrilled to be here, mark. Well, thank you so much for joining us. So can you just expand on that very British introduction, as I realized I pronounced all the things in the British terms, rather American.

Um, where are you right now of your business and who, who do you love to work with? Oh, I love working with any. Business owner that, uh, that runs a client based business. So if you work with clients. I like to work with you. Hmm. Service providers, the clients that I work with are really doing the work that they love.

They're doing the work that they're put on the planet to do, and they just wanna focus on doing the work [00:02:00] because they're passionate about helping their clients. They're passionate about the work they do. They're they're experts at their craft and. What people don't realize when they decide to be self-employed is that you also have to be a part-time marketer and nobody wants to be a time.

Are you sure? Sometimes it feels like more than that, right? This is true, yes. At least a part-time marketer and the people I work with, they don't want it to be like that. They wanna be able to focus on their work and they wanna have. Systems, um, and marketing tools set, set up, uh, that work on autopilot. So the website is one of many things that you can use, um, to get clients and to really kind of, I believe your website should be your most powerful marketing tool.

I believe your website should be the, the. The thing that acts as your top sales employee, and when it [00:03:00] does, it frees up you to focus on the work that you love and, and that's what I love doing for people. I love that with I, in my, in my past life, back in the UK had my own marketing agency. We focused on user experience, user design, websites, branding, and my evolution went through from wanting to craft something beautiful and gorgeous and with the branding to hold on.

It needs, it also needs to work, it needs to bring in the ROI and I truly believe there's somewhere in the middle that it can look good, it can look fantastic and actually work and. You know, the truth is no, nobody wants a website. What they want is a 24 7 salesperson always talking in your language, bringing people through to you.

It's, it's that need. So can you talk to me a bit about what Yeah. What it is that your clients actually want when they first reach out to you? Maybe not what you know they need, but what they think they want. Well, what, what a lot of, I think ultimately. When I talk to clients, they've been [00:04:00] embarrassed or ashamed of their website for many years.

They often, um, got into business and they were like, okay, I've gotta. Quickly get up a website. I've gotta have something up online, because that's what you do when you own your own business and people find me there. And so they, they um, they open up a Wix or a Squarespace account and they follow the templates.

They pick a template that they think looks pretty, and they kind of fill in the areas of where the suggested copy would go, and it turns into a Frankenstein monster, right? Well, sometimes, I mean, it can look okay, right? Some of those templates are kind of pretty, and there's nothing wrong with Wix or Squarespace.

I actually really love cloud-based builders. I think they're very easy to use. Um, but those companies are in the business of a brochure website. And so, so when you use their templates, um. You end [00:05:00] up with, like, you have technically you have a website, but it doesn't actually work to bring you clients. And so by the time my clients come to me a year or two or three has gone by and they, and they think back and they go, gosh, not one of my clients has found me actually through my website.

Um, maybe it should be working better. Can we just talk about that difference and expand on that? Because a brochure website versus a lead generation sales website? Yes. Can you define that? For everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. So a brochure website is really. Like an online brochure. It's like you have a website, people go to your website.

There's a picture of you, there's a paragraph maybe introducing you. Hi, I am Amy and I am a coach. I've got 10 years of experience and this is how I got into. You know this business. I have children. This is my dog. I'd love to [00:06:00] walk on the beach, like all these things right about you. And I get why this happens, why most people have brochure websites, because that's what the template told you to do, and you thought, I might as well follow their lead.

They know what they're doing. They're the website. Site company. And so that's how it happens. And a, a brochure website is a place where people can potentially find you and say, oh, she is really nice. Or she's pretty, or she's smart, but they it, when they come to your website, they don't land there and go, she gets me.

She understands exactly what I'm struggling with, and she is the right. Or he is the right person to solve my problem. And I'm so filled with, uh, hope and connection and this sense that I'm not alone in my struggle and [00:07:00] this, um. Optimism that I've found somebody who can help me finally overcome it, that I cannot wait to click on that call to action, but button and yeah, schedule a call with this person.

So that's the difference between a brochure website or an actually a story driven, high converting website. So for me it sounds like it's a bit, rather it's the, the one website is a, a look at me websites rather than, Hey, let's talk about you websites. They are two different things. I mean, crumbs, I get to see so, so, so many websites with, uh, guests coming on that we check them out, see their websites, and there are so many that are 25,000 photographs of you talking about you, you, you, I'm like.

I know everyone's told different things, and if it's the templates take you in a different direction. But what do they want? Why are they here? What's gonna get them to mm-hmm. I, I can't remember who said this. [00:08:00] Um, every single job, every single page, every single headline is not to sell or, or get the end job.

It's everything has one job. Lead to the next. Get them to people to lean in. Like, Ooh, tell me more. So right. May, maybe you're gonna destroy that for me and I'm completely wrong, but can you No. Expand on No. Yeah. You, you, you hinted on the story aspect of this from your, your, your website. So can you just like start to expand into, into that world?

Oh, of course. Yeah. Every story you've ever heard, every movie you've ever been to, every book you've ever read. Follows the same story formula. It always begins with a hero that has a problem they don't know how to solve. And what I want your listeners to know is that you are not the hero of your own story.

You are actually the guide. So if we think about. Star Wars. Um, you are the Yoda, and your customers, or your clients are Luke Skywalker. They are the [00:09:00] hero. They have the problem. You come in a little bit later in the story, not at the beginning. You come in a little bit later in the story as the guide. As the one who can step in and show that you can help that hero overcome the problem.

And I would say 99.9% of the websites on the internet right now, the company or the founder, is making themselves the hero of their own story. And the reason we don't wanna be the hero of our own story is because the hero's actually the weakest character in the story. The the heroes. Stuck with a problem they don't know how to overcome.

Mm-hmm. We don't wanna be the hero of our own story. We wanna be the strongest character in this story. And so it's a, it's a complete and total shift in how we communicate about our business. Of course, that shows up on our website, but in a perfect world, if you really wanna efficiently grow the, [00:10:00] changing that lens of how you talk about your business and how you view mm-hmm.

Business, uh, should be infused into everything you do, whether it's a podcast interview, social media, post email marketing on your website, in-person conversation. Um, the beauty is once you, once you do the foundational work of creating your signature story. You get to use it everywhere in your business, and it's actually less work rather than more work.

And the, the more you beat the same drum over and over and over and over again, that's when your marketing begins to really gain traction and you become memorable. And that's half the battle of being self-employed as just being memorable and being the first one that people think of when that problem arises for them.

Beautiful. I love that. I mean, the hero's journey, it's, yeah, it covers, yeah. Every single classic out there, and it's a, it's a pro, it's a proven formula. This [00:11:00] is not a hack. This is, this is, yeah. This is, it's proven through so much now. Yeah. You said the, to find your signature story, some people. Don't, don't think they have a story, which is probably incorrect.

It's, it's there. You just need to kind of extract it and bring it out. Yes. What are those, if we can talk about the ingredients, can you just talk about the ingredients of the, of the signature story? What are those yummy, yummy bits that are, um, like non-negotiable that, that you can help people to kind of think of?

That I, I have this in the cupboard, I have this, I can make this. Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, first I just wanna share that everybody has a story. Um, the problem is we're just too close to our own selves and our own business to be able to really. Articulate it well. It's kind of like we're, we're stuck inside of a bottle trying to read the label.

That can only be read from outside of the bottle, and every business [00:12:00] owner struggles with this. It's hard to find the words that communicate what you do in a way that people can really simply and clearly understand. So it's, it's very common for me to hear. I don't really have a story or my, what if my story isn't interesting?

Well. Number one, your story isn't even really about you. It's about your hero, and so I'm hoping that'll let people off the hook a little bit. You are a very important character in this story, but when I talk about storytelling, I'm not talking about. Your founder's story, that is a different type of story.

I'm talking about crafting a narrative for your business that invites your potential clients into a story with you. A story where they can envision themselves as a hero in your story, and you step in as the guide who's strong, who can put your hand on their back and say, I've got you together. We'll, we'll overcome this.

[00:13:00] And so it's a, it's a different type of story. Um, not to say a founder's story isn't important, but a founder's story isn't gonna get you more clients. The narrative I'm talking about is the, the an efficient pathway to really growing your business. But that, that can, we can struggle with that perception.

That could sound to some people, like they're the same thing. I can't see the difference between, between this and that. The story that, that you go on. I mean, crumbs, let's make this real, break this apart for me because from, um, you heard me talk about podcasting earlier. Our business has evolved and it's changed over time, which many people do.

That came about, and there's a story behind it because way back when we spent so much money on ads, it didn't work well for us. It wasn't aligned with us. Social media wasn't aligned with us. We turned to podcasting out of necessity, and then we found, oh my gosh, we love this. We are good at this, and we're getting better results from this.

[00:14:00] It's a beautiful way of doing it. So we saved our business through this. And then a couple years later, people wanted us to help them. So we're like, okay, we, we can do this. So we became the the Yoda after going through the hero's journey. So with our, yes, our example, it's more we have a hero's journey where we are the hero and now we have a hero's journey.

Where we are, we are the Yoda, we are the guide. Right? How do you pick apart and work out? Which, which one do we tell? Because they're both connective. They're both powerful. Yeah. Yeah. But how do you, does that make sense? It totally does. I mean, you're talking about like two different types of stories, um, and the founder's story kind of think of it like, it's like one nugget inside the larger narrative.

Hmm. So, so when you talk about the ingredients of story, um. I liken this to like a big pot of chili, right? You can't pour chicken stock into a [00:15:00] pot and say, Hey, everybody, Chili's ready. Like, you have to have all the ingredients in there. Worst chili ever. Totally. And I'm still hungry. Um, so you've gotta have all these ingredients and when you do have each of the ingredients together.

Working together. It tells a very compelling story that our brains cannot help but engage in because as humans, we are really wired for story. We've been gathering around the fireside since the beginning of time sharing stories, and so we, our brains can't help but engage. When we tell a story and the ingredients go like this, every story begins with a hero that has a problem they don't know how to solve.

Every story begins this way. They meet a guide who has a plan, give them a plan that calls them to action, [00:16:00] and ultimately that story, that hero finds success and avoids failure. And that final part there. Between success and failure is what I call stakes, meaning that's how we keep people engaged in this story.

Stakes are the reason when we go to a movie, we don't get up and go get popcorn midway through the movie. We don't even get up, go to the bathroom, we don't even check our phone, which is like a, a small miracle, but that's the power of a story, and that's why stakes are such an important part of every story that you ever tell.

Hmm. I love steak. It should be the most important part.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but the, yeah, it's there. Within those, within those yummy, yummy stakes, there is urgency and there is value. Maybe the two most important things as a business we need to get across. I mean, that's all great. There's no urgency [00:17:00] and they can't see the value. It's. It's a great children's coloring book.

That's the point. Yeah. So that those, those yummy steaks, that value that urgency. Is there any other ingredients to that? Or is is that really, this is what, what is in, that's the ingredients for this ingredients. You are so clever. Um. So the, when the hero, when the guide gives the hero a plan, the plan is the thing that reminds them this is not gonna be as hard and overwhelming and impossible as you might think it is.

And what happens is they have an internal thought at that point, which is, I can do this. And when they have that thought. They're inspired to click on your call to action, whatever your call to action is, so people are very likely to wanna click on the call to action if they know it's gonna bring them success.

They're even more likely to click on the call to action if they know it's gonna help them avoid failure, because we're constantly trying to avoid failure. And that [00:18:00] kind of ties in with the urgency that you're talking about as well. Like people are very, very driven to avoid failure. So we wanna create kind of a healthy tension between those two things.

I love that. Look, this is, this is fascinating. I can talk about this all day long. I love these concepts and this flow, but what was it about this, this line of work, this particular angle that you were like, yes, this is how I want to serve people. This is what I want to do. This is how I want to create.

What was that like? Oh my gosh. I love that question. Um, well, as I mentioned, I've been doing this. A very long time now, and I started out, um, as more of a visual storyteller, brand design, visual design, website design. And the, this is, you know, in those days I was working with large companies like Nike and Adidas and Jeff Bezos was a client at one point.

And so I worked for these large companies. I learned a ton. [00:19:00] Um. Uh, but my heart was really with the service providers because I could really relate to them like we were all trying to make it on our own. Um, and this was back in the day when like all you needed to thrive online as a small business owner was a pretty website.

Like if you had a website, you were a legitimate business. And so that's kind of what I honed in on and I, I loved creating beautiful websites and. Often, uh, my clients were basically the ones that had to provide the website copy for me. They had to give me the words that they wanted on, on their website.

Yeah. And I watched time and time again. Um, my clients struggle with this part of it, and sometimes they give me pages and pages and pages of content. Um. Uh, or on the other hand, and probably more [00:20:00] often they'd call me and be like. I'm, I'm paralyzed, I'm stuck. I, I don't know what to say on my website. I, I've got all these kind of ideas, but when I put them down on paper, it just, it's, I'm not getting anywhere.

And it was at that point that like landscape, the landscape online had changed quite a bit. Like it Mm. The markets were becoming more saturated. As you mentioned earlier in the episode, words became. Really essential, um, in telling story, right? The visuals could only get used so far. So I, I really just made it my, my mission based on watching my clients struggle.

And honestly, my own business at that point was, was struggling. Like the website that had been working for me because it was so visually beautiful mm-hmm. Wasn't as effective anymore. And I was relying on referrals, which who doesn't love referrals, but they're not a very. [00:21:00] They're not the best way to build a consistent, it's not scalable.

Right. It's not scalable and it's inconsistent. Right. Yeah. Just it's, it's hard to know. And so I just knew there had to be a better way. So I, I delved deep into story. At that point, I became one of the very first story brand guides, and that's, um, based on the book Building a StoryBrand, which is a fantastic book that I recommend everybody read.

Um, but I, I really. Got deep into that framework before the book was even out. Um, and I got to learn with Donald Miller from Donald Miller and the author of that book, which was a game changer for my business, and went to workshops, traveled, read books, and just like immersed myself in it, and kind of came through that period applying what I had learned to my own business and also.

To my clients and everything shifted. It [00:22:00] was, it was kind of miraculous, like, hold on. You went through your, your journey into the wilderness. You found a guide or a mentor along the way. This sounds familiar, right? Yes. Yes. You're a good listener. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's funny because it's true. I mean, that's, that's.

You just hit the nail on the head. And yet I wasn't doing that necessarily intentionally. I was just kind of sharing my story. But, but yeah. And then, um, it's very meta, right? And then my clients started getting incredible results. My business started thriving. Like it just was all happening in real time and it was so effective.

Um. That I've just back, I love about, I lemme just jump in there. What I love about that is the, I think this is the special source that not a lot of people talk about. The authenticity, the alignment, there's a better word. Alignment. Because again, when we [00:23:00] tried so different things, they didn't work for us.

I mean, you look hard enough, you'll find me as a video, me with a pink cowboy hat on because one of our agencies said, here's the latest trend. We were out of alignment. The energy wasn't. Right. Your journey. Once you, um, you immerse yourself, you felt, felt called to this. Once you find that thing that doesn't feel like work, that is just so much fun, that feels good.

When it feels light, it feels energizing. You will see more success. But in this day and age where we're told You need to do this, you need to do that, and it's. Ah, it feels heavy. Mm-hmm. So your journey, that lightness, I think that is maybe the special source I just wanna highlight there, which is, that's what people don't talk about, that feeling.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so true. You know, we're all kind of following those breadcrumbs and that golden thread of our story, and in hindsight we can look back and be like, ah, yes. But in the [00:24:00] moment you're just like, this feels good. This feels off. You know? And you keep leaning into the things that feel good and um, and you're guaranteed to do well if you do that.

I love that. So look, let's look, let's look forward because as you've, as you continue to grow and evolve and serve so many people and help them to craft their own story, not craft, see their own story, bring it out in them, what's, what's the vision for you? I mean, some people have their vision nailed down.

It is perfect. They know where they're going. Others, it's, it's a bit more blurry and that's okay. There's maybe parts that are super clear. What's, what's that look like for you? What's, what are you most looking forward to? Ooh, what am I most looking forward to? You know, I just, uh, completed a book. I have a new book out called From Click to Client Nice.

And I am very excited about reaching more people really through the book and really giving people the [00:25:00] tools that they need in order to really pull that story. Out from inside of them. Um, so that feels very exciting to me. I just launched a podcast also called From Click to Client. Um, I think it's just gonna be a big year of expansion for me, I think.

Yeah. Uh, I've been, 20, 24 was a lot of. Work. And I don't say that in a heavy way. Like I love working and I love the work that I get to do every day, but it was, um, it was a fair amount of just, you know, putting my head down and working. And I feel like now 2025, I get to kind of reap the fruits of my labor.

Um Mm. And, and. Enhanced my own visibility, but underneath that is really around getting to reach more people and help more people. 'cause pretty much every client-based [00:26:00] business owner that I talk to is struggling with this in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. So this, finding those right ingredients. So now you, with your book, your podcast, your, you know, your business inside out.

You know this. It's not a fad, it's not a hack. It's a, it's something that's gonna be here for crumb's, generations to come. You get the fun part now, which is, ah, it's just about more, more visibility, more authority, being out there in the world, being seen in the right way that suits you. Um, yes. Yes. What did you say earlier?

You said about the being that um, a lot of us are that, that part-time marketer, when we all get into business, we don't realize and probably is a good thing. We're not told, here's all the things we have to do else would scare us off. Um. Right. What are those tasks right now that you are maybe you are most looking forward to?

Oh, I get too. Hire this, I get to outsource this. I get to stop [00:27:00] doing this. What is, what's changed the role for your business that is that you can see the effect of now with the things that you get to do or get to not do? Yes. You know, I, I think that, hold on, I have to cough. Um.

Being self-employed can be lonely at times, and I've been self-employed for so freaking long. I'm, I'm used to it. I never consider myself a lonely person and I have a great community of people and I'm a mother and, and all of that wonderful stuff. But in the last year. I have brought two people into my team that have lightened the load for me.

And, and it's such a delightful feeling to know that like, yeah, people are working on my bus business when I'm not working and this, this wheel is still moving forward. And these two women that I'm working with, one of them [00:28:00] is really, um. Honing in on, on podcast appearances and also finding the right people for my podcast, which I'd love to talk with you about as well.

Yeah. Um, and. And then my assistant, Jamie, like, does essentially everything else, and she is really, I really rely on her. But the cool thing is just that both of these women are very positive. They're very enthusiastic. Um. They're just a joy to have in my kind of hemisphere and, uh, they make my work more fun, which, which I, I didn't expect that to happen, but yeah.

That's, it's a hard thing that that first hire, it's, oh, it's terrifying. It's, um, you can make mistakes through this, and it's, you hear all the horror stories and of course, as an entrepreneur doing it all, that ability to let go of some [00:29:00] control is for me, oh, that was the hardest thing. But I'm, I'm curious from your perspective, it's different for everyone.

What, what was that first job that you got to let go of? What was it that. E either one of them. What was the first one that you released and was like, oh, thank God, that's gone? What? What was that? I think a lot of it was focused around just maintaining my website, like keeping my website up to date. Um, I only have one offer.

I just do one offer. I keep things real simple, but I have other pages, like I have my podcast page where that Stephanie, as you know, needs to be updated and, um. Email marketing is a slog in my opinion. Like I don't enjoy that work. And so offloading that felt really, really good to me. Yeah. Yeah. So those would be the two things.

Nice. Yeah. And it gets to free you up to do those things that you are, that you are [00:30:00] good at. That o our crumbs, our job as entrepreneurs, as the business owner, do the jobs that only we can do. That should be the ultimate goal. There's systems, processes, other people, um, but where you are on your journey, I love your, there's the eagerness, there's the excitement, there's the fun of, I've got these people and it's changed everything.

That is just beautiful to hear. It really is. It really is. And it feels so good. Um, I hear you. And like making that first initial step can be a little scary, a little bit daunting, but like, what I have found is that like working with my assistant. Especially Jamie, she, um, she makes my life so much better that she'll tell me like, I'm over on my hours this month, and I'm like, I don't care.

Just, you know, don't worry about that. Just, you know, I don't want her to overwork, but [00:31:00] like, yeah, she keeps me in the loop on where she's at with her time. Um, but it's like. I don't care how much it costs. It feels so good. Is, is what I'm getting at. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. Well, look, Kris, thank you so much for sharing not only the amazing work that you do and how you help guide entrepreneurs through this, this, the, the, the, the murky mire of the, of the story, of the language, of the messaging, um, and a bit of background of yourself.

It's always fascinating. So thank you so, so much. Oh yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me, mark. It's been really delightful to talk to you. Oh, you're welcome. And look, for those people who want to know more about you and the incredible work that you do, where can they find you? How can they reach out?

Everything you would ever wanna know about me, you can find on my website@reddoorstories.com. That's [00:32:00] R-E-D-D-O-O-R-S-T-O-R-I-E s.com. And there you can find my book. I have a private podcast. You can learn about how I work with my clients one-on-one, where I really write your story for you. Um, I've got all kinds of free guides and good stuff for you to find there.

Fantastic. Well, everyone, if you're curious or think that sounds fantastic, please go and check it out. Um, and if you want to start the conversation, say Mark sent you and just en enjoy, enjoy your hero's journey. Oh my gosh. That's what it's all about. Kris, look, thank you so much. It's been, this has been so much fun.

Thank you so much. You're welcome.

Is your website turning away Potential clients? I can help you turn that around. Book a moneymaking messaging call with me today and we'll transform your story into your most powerful sales tool. That's all for this episode of From Click to Client. Don't forget to subscribe and follow. I'm Chris Jones and I'll see you next.